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If You Needed to Pass an Exam to Vote

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  • S [email protected]

    It's a beautiful thought but at this point in time it would be used as a tool to exclude more than anything. So long as it is a voluntary service there would be a system in place to suppress certain groups.

    D This user is from outside of this forum
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    [email protected]
    wrote last edited by
    #107

    No I agree it absolutely would NOT work any time near this generation. It's not happening in our lifetimes, and if it does...that's probably bad. But conceptually, it is feasible...assuming like 50 other variables we are currently missing.

    1 Reply Last reply
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    • savvywolf@pawb.socialS [email protected]

      So... What's stopping the government in power from implementing systems that stop their political opponents holding those service positions?

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      wrote last edited by
      #108

      Yeah it's one of those ideas that work great if it's the way we had always done things for several generations...but it's not gonna work if we try to start it when anyone alive now is still...well...alive.

      1 Reply Last reply
      0
      • B [email protected]

        I also thought it a good idea at one point. I've since been convinced otherwise.

        BUT, I do think we need some way for intolerant people to be stripped of the political power of the vote. I just can't figure out a way it could possibly be implemented without being weaponized against the marginalized. It may be better to implement it and attempt "constant vigilance" -- it seems like there are already necessary system that can be so weaponized that still do more good than harm.

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        wrote last edited by
        #109

        Humans in 2025 are...well, mostly horrible. So if we're working with this stock, it's never going to work. It's more of an idea that works really well AFTER the morons die from COVID/etc. because they refused to wear a mask unless that mask let them brutalize brown folks. Long-term, I think it's in idea we shouldn't bin (as a species). But it absolutely won't work TODAY.

        R 1 Reply Last reply
        0
        • M [email protected]

          What that actually looked like:

          G This user is from outside of this forum
          G This user is from outside of this forum
          [email protected]
          wrote last edited by
          #110

          I did my best. Do I get to vote?

          R H objection@lemmy.mlO tag@lemmy.worldT 4 Replies Last reply
          0
          • F [email protected]

            Maybe the author was aware of it being a bad idea but didn't really emphasize that only an exclusive group would pick our leaders.

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            wrote last edited by
            #111

            Judging from the rest of this author's work, I highly doubt they thought about this any deeper than a puddle.

            1 Reply Last reply
            7
            • T [email protected]

              A

              I think.

              5 This user is from outside of this forum
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              wrote last edited by
              #112

              I read it as "1." Which underlines the point, I think

              T 1 Reply Last reply
              2
              • scrubbles@poptalk.scrubbles.techS [email protected]

                I won't call out of or the drawer for bad idea. The idea is fine. There's just zero ways to ever implement it. It's nice to dream though

                D This user is from outside of this forum
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                wrote last edited by
                #113

                Uhh, no the idea is most certainly not "fine"

                It's only fine if you don't think about it at all beyond the surface level presentation.

                B 1 Reply Last reply
                2
                • M [email protected]

                  What that actually looked like:

                  dsilverz@calckey.worldD This user is from outside of this forum
                  dsilverz@calckey.worldD This user is from outside of this forum
                  [email protected]
                  wrote last edited by
                  #114

                  @[email protected] @[email protected]

                  TIL I'm possibly partially (if not entirely) illiterate.

                  Starting with the first question, "Draw a
                  line a_round_ the number or letter of this sentence.", which can be ELI5'd as follows:

                  The main object is
                  the number or letter of this sentence, which is the number or letter signaling the sentence, which is "1", which is a number, so it's the number of this sentence, "1". This is fine.

                  The action being required is to "
                  Draw a line around" the object, so, I must draw a line.

                  However, a
                  line implies a straight line, while around implies a circle (which is round), so it must be a circle.

                  However, what's
                  around a circle isn't called a line, it's a circumference. And a circumference is made of infinitesimally small segments so small that they're essentially an arc. And an arc is a segment insofar it effectively connects two points in a cartesian space with two dimensions or more... And a segment is essentially a finite range of a line, which is infinite...

                  The original question asks for a line, which is infinite. However, any physical object is finite insofar it has a limited, finite area, so a
                  line couldn't be drawn: what can be drawn is a segment whose length is less or equal to the largest diagonal of the said physical object, which is a rectangular paper, so drawing a line would be impossible, only segments comprising a circumference.

                  However, a physically-drawn
                  segment can't be infinitesimal insofar the thickness of the drawing tool would exceed the infinitesimality from an infinitesimal segment. It wouldn't be a circumference, but a polygon with many sides.

                  So I must draw a
                  polygon with enough sides to closely represent a circumference, composed by the smallest possible segments, which are finite lines.

                  However, the question asks for
                  a line, and the English preposition a implies a single unit of something... but the said something can be a set (e.g. a flock, which implies many birds)... but line isn't a set...

                  However,
                  too many howevers.

                  So, if I decide to draw a circumference centered at the object (the number 1), as in
                  circle the number, maybe it won't be the line originally expected.

                  I could draw a box instead, which would technically be
                  around it, and would be made of lines (four lines, to be exact). But, again, a line isn't the same as lines, let alone four lines.

                  I could draw a single line, but it wouldn't be
                  around.

                  Maybe I could reinterpret the space. I could bend the paper and glue two opposing edges of it, so any segment would behave as a line, because the drawable space is now bent and both tips of the segment would meet seamlessly.

                  But the line wouldn't be
                  around the object, so the paper must be bent in a way that turns it into a cone whose tip is centered on the object, so a segment would become a line effectively around the object...

                  However, I got
                  no glue.

                  /jk

                  P 1 Reply Last reply
                  0
                  • D [email protected]

                    The way I imagined it, you would get a wage for your service and service would be customizable to account for any disability, including severe intellectual-disability.

                    5 This user is from outside of this forum
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                    [email protected]
                    wrote last edited by [email protected]
                    #115

                    Iirc, in the book, the point was that it was hazardous service - there was a real risk of loss of life or limb, which they underlined at every opportunity (remember the recruiter's obviously prosthetic hand? He had one that blended in much better!) Otherwise, like dick_fineman said, customized to your abilities and you're provided for. The idea was to filter out the self-serving sort.

                    But yeah, the problem becomes who gets to assign which duty - it becomes very easy to assign some people more hazardous positions depending on how "correct" their thinking is. Or more subtle things, like cultural fit, or education level.

                    1 Reply Last reply
                    0
                    • savvywolf@pawb.socialS [email protected]

                      Ehh... I think it's fundamentally problematic. Why should only a subset of the adult population be allowed to vote on laws that affect everyone?

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                      wrote last edited by
                      #116

                      If there were a practical way to do it, a way to ensure that only those who were well informed on a topic could have a say in it wouldn't be an issue. The only barrier to voting would be your desire to inform yourself.

                      Unfortunately there isn't, because just about every word in the above sentences can be twisted by someone with illintent.
                      The concept isn't fundamentally flawed, it's just blocked by insurmountable obstacles.

                      scrubbles@poptalk.scrubbles.techS 1 Reply Last reply
                      4
                      • B [email protected]
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                        [email protected]
                        wrote last edited by [email protected]
                        #117

                        If I recall correctly, Aristotle proposed something like only the educated being able to vote. I think if everyone was guaranteed free access to both a high school and college education, along with all food and living costs covered for anyone studying, then I could see having at least any associates level degree being an okay barrier of entry to voting.

                        However, such a thing would need to be protected by some unremovable barriers. For instance, education would need to continue receiving appropriate funding, food and other living costs such as renting a room would need to be covered even as the cost for these things change. People with disabilities would need to receive proper accommodations.

                        A caveat I’ll add is that there would need to be more community colleges built and much more funding for pre-K thru 12th grade as well.

                        E 1 Reply Last reply
                        11
                        • savvywolf@pawb.socialS [email protected]

                          First question on the test:
                          "What is the most important American value?"

                          A This user is from outside of this forum
                          A This user is from outside of this forum
                          [email protected]
                          wrote last edited by
                          #118

                          Oh! Oh! I know this one!

                          Telling someone else they're doing freedom wrong!

                          1 Reply Last reply
                          0
                          • chicken@lemmy.dbzer0.comC [email protected]

                            the main function of the contemporary media: to convey the message that even if you’re clever enough to have figured out that it’s all a cynical power game, the rest of America is a ridiculous pack of sheep.

                            This is the trap.

                            -David Graeber, The Democracy Project

                            P This user is from outside of this forum
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                            wrote last edited by
                            #119

                            You mean most people know better?

                            How could society signal to themselves that they know?

                            J 1 Reply Last reply
                            0
                            • dsilverz@calckey.worldD [email protected]

                              @[email protected] @[email protected]

                              TIL I'm possibly partially (if not entirely) illiterate.

                              Starting with the first question, "Draw a
                              line a_round_ the number or letter of this sentence.", which can be ELI5'd as follows:

                              The main object is
                              the number or letter of this sentence, which is the number or letter signaling the sentence, which is "1", which is a number, so it's the number of this sentence, "1". This is fine.

                              The action being required is to "
                              Draw a line around" the object, so, I must draw a line.

                              However, a
                              line implies a straight line, while around implies a circle (which is round), so it must be a circle.

                              However, what's
                              around a circle isn't called a line, it's a circumference. And a circumference is made of infinitesimally small segments so small that they're essentially an arc. And an arc is a segment insofar it effectively connects two points in a cartesian space with two dimensions or more... And a segment is essentially a finite range of a line, which is infinite...

                              The original question asks for a line, which is infinite. However, any physical object is finite insofar it has a limited, finite area, so a
                              line couldn't be drawn: what can be drawn is a segment whose length is less or equal to the largest diagonal of the said physical object, which is a rectangular paper, so drawing a line would be impossible, only segments comprising a circumference.

                              However, a physically-drawn
                              segment can't be infinitesimal insofar the thickness of the drawing tool would exceed the infinitesimality from an infinitesimal segment. It wouldn't be a circumference, but a polygon with many sides.

                              So I must draw a
                              polygon with enough sides to closely represent a circumference, composed by the smallest possible segments, which are finite lines.

                              However, the question asks for
                              a line, and the English preposition a implies a single unit of something... but the said something can be a set (e.g. a flock, which implies many birds)... but line isn't a set...

                              However,
                              too many howevers.

                              So, if I decide to draw a circumference centered at the object (the number 1), as in
                              circle the number, maybe it won't be the line originally expected.

                              I could draw a box instead, which would technically be
                              around it, and would be made of lines (four lines, to be exact). But, again, a line isn't the same as lines, let alone four lines.

                              I could draw a single line, but it wouldn't be
                              around.

                              Maybe I could reinterpret the space. I could bend the paper and glue two opposing edges of it, so any segment would behave as a line, because the drawable space is now bent and both tips of the segment would meet seamlessly.

                              But the line wouldn't be
                              around the object, so the paper must be bent in a way that turns it into a cone whose tip is centered on the object, so a segment would become a line effectively around the object...

                              However, I got
                              no glue.

                              /jk

                              P This user is from outside of this forum
                              P This user is from outside of this forum
                              [email protected]
                              wrote last edited by
                              #120

                              The ambiguity was by design. It let the test proctor decide who did or did not pass with near impunity. This was used to legally deny voting rights to minorities.

                              dsilverz@calckey.worldD 1 Reply Last reply
                              1
                              • G [email protected]

                                I did my best. Do I get to vote?

                                R This user is from outside of this forum
                                R This user is from outside of this forum
                                [email protected]
                                wrote last edited by [email protected]
                                #121

                                Nope. The answer to number ten is 'a'.

                                Assuming you went with "last", but that starts with 'l', not 'L'. Each other question also specifies "one this line" where relevant, but not this one. The first word starting with 'L' is "Louisiana".

                                The trick of the test is that it's subjective to the person grading it. I could have also told you that the line drawing one (12) was wrong by just saying it's not the correct way to do it. Or that 11 was wrong because you didn't make the number below one million, it's equal to one million. Or if you crossed off one more zero I'd say you could have gotten fewer by crossing off the 1 at the start. Or that a long string of zeros isn't a properly formatted number.

                                G 1 Reply Last reply
                                7
                                • P [email protected]

                                  The ambiguity was by design. It let the test proctor decide who did or did not pass with near impunity. This was used to legally deny voting rights to minorities.

                                  dsilverz@calckey.worldD This user is from outside of this forum
                                  dsilverz@calckey.worldD This user is from outside of this forum
                                  [email protected]
                                  wrote last edited by
                                  #122

                                  @[email protected] Yeah, I'm aware, my reply was an attempt to "Monty-Pythonize" the degree of absurdity from the questions 😆

                                  P 1 Reply Last reply
                                  0
                                  • dsilverz@calckey.worldD [email protected]

                                    @[email protected] Yeah, I'm aware, my reply was an attempt to "Monty-Pythonize" the degree of absurdity from the questions 😆

                                    P This user is from outside of this forum
                                    P This user is from outside of this forum
                                    [email protected]
                                    wrote last edited by
                                    #123

                                    Oh, well, carry on, then. Carry on.

                                    1 Reply Last reply
                                    0
                                    • S [email protected]

                                      Oh good, now we have three completely different answers

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                                      wrote last edited by
                                      #124

                                      Four. You need to make the number below (less than) one million, so cross out zeros until it's 100,000.
                                      ”0000000” isn't a properly formatted number.

                                      It's a fun game finding the ways you can tell someone whatever they said is wrong.

                                      1 Reply Last reply
                                      0
                                      • B [email protected]
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                                        P This user is from outside of this forum
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                                        wrote last edited by
                                        #125

                                        There is a general rejection of such a test. Obviously voting in its current form doesn't work. If everybody keeps being allowed to vote, what can be done to improve the quality of the outcome?

                                        venus_ziegenfalle@feddit.orgV U S 3 Replies Last reply
                                        0
                                        • B [email protected]

                                          I also thought it a good idea at one point. I've since been convinced otherwise.

                                          BUT, I do think we need some way for intolerant people to be stripped of the political power of the vote. I just can't figure out a way it could possibly be implemented without being weaponized against the marginalized. It may be better to implement it and attempt "constant vigilance" -- it seems like there are already necessary system that can be so weaponized that still do more good than harm.

                                          D This user is from outside of this forum
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                                          [email protected]
                                          wrote last edited by
                                          #126

                                          The only way to do it would be to fundamentally change the structure of the system so that power is distributed horizontally instead of top-down. This way, no singular individual can consolidate power over others. Essentially, we need an entirely new government and economics (as capitalism is inherently hierarchical and exploitative), a total redistribution of wealth and power of authority.

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