Infighting
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There aren't enough showers in the world to wash off the shame of any part of that interaction.
Well that's why they're winning, because they have no problem employing spies.
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I've seen this type of tactic really well displayed in this video by SquidTips.
This man talked to a fucking Proud Boy wearing a rainbow shirt that said in large letters "GAY" on it with a button that had the hammer and sickle in trans colors, mentioned his partner was trans, and got the guy to agree with him on the fact that he should be focusing on the class war rather than the culture war.
Even Proud Boys and people on the far, far right still think that what they're doing is good for society. You don't have to convince them to "stop being evil, switch to being good" you just have to convince them that "this is a more effective method at making society better than what you currently believe is the best."
Will it work for everyone? Of course not. Some people are just going to be too far gone for you to reach, but there's a lot more people than you might think that could be swayed, despite what the flood of media coverage of the extremes of society can make you believe.
I've found that even if you do this, it doesn't really alter their behavior. A moment of consensus is never going to be enough.
People need to treat this kind of stuff like breaking someone from a drug addiction or helping someone lose weight. Without addressing the lifestyle factors that drove them down that path, you'll never get them to actually change.
That's why the brainwashing is so terrifying. People can fall into it pretty quickly and then it can take years and years to deprogram them.
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How does that work in the opposite direction, though? Republicans are protecting pedophiles and labelling truth as opinion, all whilst dehumanizing fellow Americans.
Tell me, how does one meet in the middle with such a monster?
The truth about many republicans, is that they want good things for society as well. However they are some of the most gullible, ignorant, uneducated, even miseducated people you will ever care to meet.
It is possible to reach them. But it is one of the most Herculean tasks you will ever undertake. One of the hardest parts of it is to avoid triggering their programming. Starting small with basic concepts you can both agree on. And working from there.
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They put their thumb on the scale with Mamdani and he won anyway.
He won a primary but has yet to win the election. This is the same party that also produced Trump supporter Adams and sleazebag Cuomo. The same party that just ousted recently elected party leaders for wanting to primary candidates like Adams and Cuomo with candidates like Mamdani. They've demonstrated time and time again that they'd rather have someone like Trump win than allow someone like Mamdani to take office and that's what he'll be facing in the general election.
Because primary turnout is something like 15% of eligible voters, who are disproportionately old and "centrist".
Because people have been beaten down with the same club for so long that they've given up. I can say with almost certainty that a majority of people these days are just voting against the other candidate rather than voting for someone, so how do you build a coalition of people behind someone in an environment like that? You don't.
I'm just saying it wouldn't matter if we quit the infighting, rallied behind a good prospect, and actually showed up to vote for them as the Democratic candidate.
I completely agree that's possible in theory but then it brings us back to square one where the DNC won't give them any support, puts out attack ads about how they're "too radical," excludes them from debates, and corporate media gives them no coverage. You're asking for a machine to produce a product that isn't wanted by the people actually running the machine.
People here and on Reddit will tell you election after election that it's on you to compromise and meet these right-wing Democrats where they stand. That "now is not the right time," that you should "vote blue no matter who," that "everything is on the line this time" as these very same candidates lose election after election. If you argue with them you're just met with a bunch of thought-terminating cliches like "bOtH SiDeS" or "Russian plant" and treated as a scapegoat for not compromising to their disgusting and ineffective values, meanwhile they act like said loser candidate was "the best option" in hindsight despite the fact that they lost yet again.
At this point I'd be perfectly happy to throw the Democratic party in the incinerator alongside the Republican party and just starting over from scratch. They only exist at this point to act as controlled opposition and kayfabe to give the appearance of two opposing sides.
He won a primary but has yet to win the election.
My whole point was about primaries, but even still he's polling well in the lead. If he wins will you admit that it can be done?
Because people have been beaten down with the same club for so long that they've given up. I can say with almost certainty that a majority of people these days are just voting against the other candidate rather than voting for someone, so how do you build a coalition of people behind someone in an environment like that?
Okay, what's your point? That the same population that's too apathetic to vote in a primary are going to what, pick up arms and take to the streets? Organize behind and promote a minority party? How do you plan to build a coalition behind an objectively more difficult and unlikely strategy? You don't.
You're asking for a machine to produce a product that isn't wanted by the people actually running the machine.
Mamdani, and several other leftist candidates have been running exceptionally successful grassroots campaigns through social media and hitting the streets. We live in the information age, viral community-driven campaigns have the potential to reach more people than legacy media. And again, what alternative do you propose that will face less corporate opposition? You think the DNC is going to stay silent on third party candidates competing for their votes? You think corporate media is going to stay silent on any attempt at actual revolution? If the machine is so powerful, what action are you suggesting that can actually overcome it?
they act like said loser candidate was "the best option" in hindsight despite the fact that they lost yet again.
So long as elections in this country are FPTP, and leftists don't show up to primaries, and Republicans keep pushing Christo-fascism, then they are correct that it is the best option. Splitting the anti-Republican vote just helps the Republicans, and by extension the Heritage Foundation and Federalist Society. Personally, I'd rather have a Neo-Liberal government than a Christian Nationalist one, and there aren't any other options right now.
At this point I'd be perfectly happy to throw the Democratic party in the incinerator alongside the Republican party and just starting over from scratch.
No disagreement here, but where's the incinerator and the power to throw them in it? If I had a magic wand that I could wave to erase both parties, I would. But I don't have that kind of magic wand, and neither do you. We have to operate in the environment we actually exist in. Idealism doesn't get us any closer to material change. Voting against the worst option is the best choice we have at the polls, until we can get seriously organized. Serious organization takes a lot of time and effort. Ignoring the material present for a vague idealist future is a massive strategic blunder.
It's a lot harder to organize as a political prisoner in a concentration camp.
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Are you saying nutomic is a troll?
Most communist don't identify as that because of the way leninist and Maoist have soiled it.
wrote last edited by [email protected]I don't want to put you out, but if you've got actual links to him saying dodgy stuff, then please could you show me?
I'm about ten minutes into reading through his Reddit comments and he's not even said anything political. One of the most recent comments was him replying to an accusation of creating the federated wiki alternative for right-wing purposes, which is confusing me even more.
He's specifically telling people which instances they can join that block lemmygrad.
He doesn't seem that extreme. If you can provide something, it'd really be appreciated, because from looking at his posts so far, he seems a nice enough guy.
Edit - never mind, I think I've found what you're referring to. I'll look through them properly in a little bit.
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I'm anti authoritarian and anti right. Tankies are leftists that I have no interest in getting along with. They are just as excited to be holding the gun in this comic
wrote last edited by [email protected]Exactly, all authoritarians (far left/far right) can suck a big fat one. They are always the best boot lickers.
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I have literally never run into anyone in real life who says any of these as any form of communist, other than 'communist' parties full of pensioners or maga communists.
::: spoiler spoiler
- LGBTQ+ identities are bourgeois degeneracy
- Trans people are a capitalist invention to divide workers
- Nazis have a point when it comes to nationalism
- Assad and Putin are leftists
- Killing millions of people is necessary for a better world
- The socialist state must uphold “traditional values”
- “Socialist” police are a good thing because they don’t serve capital, they serve the people
- The only valid leftist theory is the one that argues Marxism-Leninism is correct
- Stalin exclusively killed Nazis
:::
I have run into people saying things like this:
::: spoiler spoiler
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Anarchism has never been tried successfully
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Anarchists are all children who don’t know better
:::
and I'll push back on it, but it's not a monolith, Marxists with decent enough social skills to not insult allies do exist
Animal farm is propaganda, by a social democrat with a clear agenda.
Believe it or not, these are almost never relevant to actual organizing work:
::: spoiler spoiler
- China is communist or will be communist by 2050
- Ukraine is a Nazi state who deserves to be invaded
- Russia taking children from Ukraine and relocating them is just them being nice and removing them out of the warzone
- States are 100% necessary for the development of socialism
:::
They never said RL. That is a very specific and self aware cop-out. You know as well as we do, the ml servers are known for this for good reason.
Being fully transparent .world has their shit heads too. As do most other servers. However to the best of my knowledge they tend not to be administrators etc.
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Im at 3 minutes and he is still not talking about the topic. What are the arguments?
main thing starts at 4:28. its also in the chapters list
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[dude with glasses in a communist t-shirt, arguing]
I'm the only leftist here, your opinions are TRASH[dude holding a theory book on smug, arguing]
Read theory you losers, you're all WRONG[dude in an anarchist hoodie, arguing]
Nuh-uh, I'm the only leftist here, you're SHITLIBS[the three dudes are now caught in a cartoon fight, glasses gone flying, punches everywhere, while a firing squad of nazis are targeting them with rifles]
[a confused nazi asks]
Why… why are they still arguing?
Infighting | The Bad Website
Infighting - A comic on The Bad Website
The Bad Website (thebad.website)
This is a selffulfilling prophecy. People don't try coordinating because everybody knows that they can only win by raw force.
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It's why ranked choice is the only sane voting approach. First past the post heavily favors right wing authoritarians.
“Voting is actually bad”
Tankies
Nazis -
The truth about many republicans, is that they want good things for society as well. However they are some of the most gullible, ignorant, uneducated, even miseducated people you will ever care to meet.
It is possible to reach them. But it is one of the most Herculean tasks you will ever undertake. One of the hardest parts of it is to avoid triggering their programming. Starting small with basic concepts you can both agree on. And working from there.
wrote last edited by [email protected]How do you find common ground when “wanting good things for society” to them means “enslaving all the n****** and killing all the f******”?
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I don't want to put you out, but if you've got actual links to him saying dodgy stuff, then please could you show me?
I'm about ten minutes into reading through his Reddit comments and he's not even said anything political. One of the most recent comments was him replying to an accusation of creating the federated wiki alternative for right-wing purposes, which is confusing me even more.
He's specifically telling people which instances they can join that block lemmygrad.
He doesn't seem that extreme. If you can provide something, it'd really be appreciated, because from looking at his posts so far, he seems a nice enough guy.
Edit - never mind, I think I've found what you're referring to. I'll look through them properly in a little bit.
I'm not so focused to keep lists Etc myself. However if you are interested in learning a bit more about it all. There are actually a few communities dedicated to it. Don't just take anything there as gospel though. Critical thinking is always good to employ. And even then it might just come down to who you decide you want to believe. However massive amounts of hypocritical behavior to me would indicate less trustworthiness.
Meanwhileongrad has a lot of it. Just bear in mind. Where people will stand is often more about what they do than even what they say.
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That's my point. USSR and the CCP have arguably permanently damaged the communism "brand".
And you talked to russians, things were even worse for nations occupied by the russians.
Under capitalism you can criticize capitalism. under communism, dissension is met with punishment.
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They never said RL. That is a very specific and self aware cop-out. You know as well as we do, the ml servers are known for this for good reason.
Being fully transparent .world has their shit heads too. As do most other servers. However to the best of my knowledge they tend not to be administrators etc.
️wrote last edited by [email protected]They never said RL.
My original comment at the start of this thread was:
this is terminally online behavior. Marxists I’ve run into in actual organizing work are generally pretty chill
This is in a thread about getting murdered IRL by fascists while bickering. I think real life is relevant.
I then get the litany of online behaviors that people engage in, including a lot of stuff that has no basis in reality outside of trolls and crypto-fascists.
The shit I get from some people because of what instance I happen to use is literally the thing depicted in the comic though:
I can’t take anything you say in good faith if you willingly use that space.
At some point actually fighting fascism requires realizing that it's a lot easier to work with communists and anarchists despite whatever disagreements you have, because as different ideologically as we may be, that distinction doesn't matter to our enemies.
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Except when the DNC doesn't like that candidate so they put their thumb on the scale to ensure they don't win. Why else do you think we keep getting the same handful of candidates? Clinton, Clinton, Gore, Kerry, Obama, Obama, Clinton, Biden, Biden, Harris. Do you not see the pattern here? They want a dynasty in control not the people with the best ideas.
Except when the DNC doesn't like that candidate so they put their thumb on the scale to ensure they don't win.
Knew it was going here. There’s always a reason we’re going to not vote this time. Thumb on the scale, billions in blood money, seekrit laws prohibiting democracy.
We have one year before the midterms.
Lefties, commies, demsoc/socdem, anarchists, shitlibs, groaties, tankies, whatever the fuck — Get.Yourshit.Together. If you can’t bring yourself to vote for the DNC, and you can’t get anything else going, you’re wasting your own time and sinking the rest of us.
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He won a primary but has yet to win the election.
My whole point was about primaries, but even still he's polling well in the lead. If he wins will you admit that it can be done?
Because people have been beaten down with the same club for so long that they've given up. I can say with almost certainty that a majority of people these days are just voting against the other candidate rather than voting for someone, so how do you build a coalition of people behind someone in an environment like that?
Okay, what's your point? That the same population that's too apathetic to vote in a primary are going to what, pick up arms and take to the streets? Organize behind and promote a minority party? How do you plan to build a coalition behind an objectively more difficult and unlikely strategy? You don't.
You're asking for a machine to produce a product that isn't wanted by the people actually running the machine.
Mamdani, and several other leftist candidates have been running exceptionally successful grassroots campaigns through social media and hitting the streets. We live in the information age, viral community-driven campaigns have the potential to reach more people than legacy media. And again, what alternative do you propose that will face less corporate opposition? You think the DNC is going to stay silent on third party candidates competing for their votes? You think corporate media is going to stay silent on any attempt at actual revolution? If the machine is so powerful, what action are you suggesting that can actually overcome it?
they act like said loser candidate was "the best option" in hindsight despite the fact that they lost yet again.
So long as elections in this country are FPTP, and leftists don't show up to primaries, and Republicans keep pushing Christo-fascism, then they are correct that it is the best option. Splitting the anti-Republican vote just helps the Republicans, and by extension the Heritage Foundation and Federalist Society. Personally, I'd rather have a Neo-Liberal government than a Christian Nationalist one, and there aren't any other options right now.
At this point I'd be perfectly happy to throw the Democratic party in the incinerator alongside the Republican party and just starting over from scratch.
No disagreement here, but where's the incinerator and the power to throw them in it? If I had a magic wand that I could wave to erase both parties, I would. But I don't have that kind of magic wand, and neither do you. We have to operate in the environment we actually exist in. Idealism doesn't get us any closer to material change. Voting against the worst option is the best choice we have at the polls, until we can get seriously organized. Serious organization takes a lot of time and effort. Ignoring the material present for a vague idealist future is a massive strategic blunder.
It's a lot harder to organize as a political prisoner in a concentration camp.
It’s a tunnel they get into. Fascism is bad but the DNC is worse.
I complain about the DNC all the time, follow local races, and donate to them. But some segments of the world can’t even imagine national party politics not being the source of all evil.
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[dude with glasses in a communist t-shirt, arguing]
I'm the only leftist here, your opinions are TRASH[dude holding a theory book on smug, arguing]
Read theory you losers, you're all WRONG[dude in an anarchist hoodie, arguing]
Nuh-uh, I'm the only leftist here, you're SHITLIBS[the three dudes are now caught in a cartoon fight, glasses gone flying, punches everywhere, while a firing squad of nazis are targeting them with rifles]
[a confused nazi asks]
Why… why are they still arguing?
Infighting | The Bad Website
Infighting - A comic on The Bad Website
The Bad Website (thebad.website)
Add in some conservatives from le other side to the first panel and replace the soldiers in the second panel with the 1% and id say it’s accurate.
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How do you find common ground when “wanting good things for society” to them means “enslaving all the n****** and killing all the f******”?
They think that "those people" must be controlled and enslaved even for their own good. They have been programmed and indoctrinate so deeply they actually believe that those people are the problem. That it wasn't systems Etc that kept them disadvantaged and down. But somehow something in there very being
Similar to those sneaky manipulative immigrants. Who are on the whole often far more abiding than your average American citizen. Somehow thinking they have forced employers to pay them less and take advantage of them just to hurt law abiding americans. It's not logical, it's honestly fucking insane. But a lot of it comes from a similar place. They are hurting too. Much like the rest of us. They just can't see everyone else. It's always about them. So the best way to start in on them. Is to point out how the exact same systems have victimized them. And how those they support have enabled and supported it.
Don't get me wrong there are absolutely many you are shitty people to their core. Whom you shouldn't bother with. The plenty of them have no concept of class 4 or how much they are being manipulated by Elite bourgeoisie. They just want things to be better. But have no clue about what that would look like or how to go about it. Often times having been completely indoctrinated against it.
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[dude with glasses in a communist t-shirt, arguing]
I'm the only leftist here, your opinions are TRASH[dude holding a theory book on smug, arguing]
Read theory you losers, you're all WRONG[dude in an anarchist hoodie, arguing]
Nuh-uh, I'm the only leftist here, you're SHITLIBS[the three dudes are now caught in a cartoon fight, glasses gone flying, punches everywhere, while a firing squad of nazis are targeting them with rifles]
[a confused nazi asks]
Why… why are they still arguing?
Infighting | The Bad Website
Infighting - A comic on The Bad Website
The Bad Website (thebad.website)
Taps sign again...
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[dude with glasses in a communist t-shirt, arguing]
I'm the only leftist here, your opinions are TRASH[dude holding a theory book on smug, arguing]
Read theory you losers, you're all WRONG[dude in an anarchist hoodie, arguing]
Nuh-uh, I'm the only leftist here, you're SHITLIBS[the three dudes are now caught in a cartoon fight, glasses gone flying, punches everywhere, while a firing squad of nazis are targeting them with rifles]
[a confused nazi asks]
Why… why are they still arguing?
Infighting | The Bad Website
Infighting - A comic on The Bad Website
The Bad Website (thebad.website)
Comma splice all 'round. 3/3.
