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Infighting

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  • draegur@lemmy.zipD [email protected]

    I don't care what someone calls themselves as long as they oppose fascism and understand that the only place where Pedophiles are welcome is the inside of a wood chipper.

    a_wild_mimic_appears@lemmy.dbzer0.comA This user is from outside of this forum
    a_wild_mimic_appears@lemmy.dbzer0.comA This user is from outside of this forum
    [email protected]
    wrote last edited by [email protected]
    #252

    I can understand the emotional impulse, but i would change it to "active pedophiles". They can't really choose what arouses them, but they can choose not to act on those impulses - that is what counts. This distinction is important, because i would very much prefer if inactive pedophiles (who probably beat themselves up constantly, leading to emotional instability, depression and therefore a higher risk of becoming active) had easy access to ressources to help them stay inactive like therapy or the equivalent to Narcotics Anonymous.

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    • rockerface@lemmy.cafeR [email protected]

      They would also tell me to my (virtual) face that they think my country has no right to exist, so that too makes it pretty hard to have any sort of productive collaboration.

      B This user is from outside of this forum
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      wrote last edited by
      #253

      No communist thinks any country has a "right to exist".

      1 Reply Last reply
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      • O [email protected]

        Not gonna mention the Secret Protocol in the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact that enabled the partition of Poland and the Baltics?

        Or that Stalin actually fell for it all, trusted Hitler, disregarded all evidence of Nazi troop buildup until the day of Operation Barbarossa? Then Stalin spent weeks disappeared from public view.

        Credit to the Soviets for defeating the Nazis. WW2 would have been lost without them. But they also acted as imperialists in reattaching Tsarist colonies to Russia, dividing Poland and the Baltics with Hitler, invading Finland, not to mention all the puppet states created postwar.

        B This user is from outside of this forum
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        wrote last edited by
        #254

        Liberals will never forgive the USSR for not letting the Nazis have all of Poland.

        1 Reply Last reply
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        • R [email protected]

          Still looking for a single leftist here who claims they support communism. I constantly see it being attributed to the left, but in real life scenarios I just don't see it, only in memes, unless you meant socialism, which is a healthy system of every country, including US.

          EDIT: I guess I should stop waiting, this feels like strawman argument/gatekeeping

          B This user is from outside of this forum
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          wrote last edited by
          #255

          How does one get to be so ignorant, but also so confident about it?

          1 Reply Last reply
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          • salamencefury@lemmy.worldS [email protected]

            You're literally the pink guy on this comic.

            B This user is from outside of this forum
            B This user is from outside of this forum
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            wrote last edited by
            #256

            Wow, literally "I have already depicted you as a soyjack"

            1 Reply Last reply
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            • A [email protected]

              “Voting is actually bad”
              Tankies 🤝 Nazis

              slvrdrgn@lemmy.worldS This user is from outside of this forum
              slvrdrgn@lemmy.worldS This user is from outside of this forum
              [email protected]
              wrote last edited by
              #257

              This is why far "left" and "right" are itself misguided labels. It's more like far opposite on the other end where they meet.

              cowbee@lemmy.mlC B irelephant@lemmy.dbzer0.comI G 4 Replies Last reply
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              • P [email protected]

                If you're throwing the word "liberals" around, you're an authoritarian, which is no better than being a fascist.

                This is why I can't stand Tankies and establishment Democrats. You can't claim to be a champion of human rights, while simultaneously supporting the governments that egregiously violate peoples' human rights. Complete and utter hypocrites.

                Edit: See what I mean? All of you suck.

                T This user is from outside of this forum
                T This user is from outside of this forum
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                wrote last edited by
                #258

                Edit: See what I mean?

                No. Using the word for a any political group does not make you anything. Also, your comment is extremely US centric, (neo-)liberalism has done a lot of damage on the other side of the pool.

                1 Reply Last reply
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                • P [email protected]

                  If you're throwing the word "liberals" around, you're an authoritarian, which is no better than being a fascist.

                  This is why I can't stand Tankies and establishment Democrats. You can't claim to be a champion of human rights, while simultaneously supporting the governments that egregiously violate peoples' human rights. Complete and utter hypocrites.

                  Edit: See what I mean? All of you suck.

                  O This user is from outside of this forum
                  O This user is from outside of this forum
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                  wrote last edited by
                  #259

                  idk man, looks to me like Liberals (the political ideology, not the US term for leftwing people) seems to side with the Nazis almost as a rule whenever the faschists come about

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                  • salamencefury@lemmy.worldS [email protected]

                    I'm not uniting with people who will kill me later. We've done that multiple times. Your ilk always betrays us.

                    R This user is from outside of this forum
                    R This user is from outside of this forum
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                    wrote last edited by
                    #260

                    Saying this while shaking hand with Hitler, voting for the Nazi's enabling act.

                    "Heh I've really shown those socialists this time."

                    1 Reply Last reply
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                    • D [email protected]

                      The nice thing about the two party system is that there is no one else to vote for. Its how we got here. But at least we will have a chance of putting someone who has an idea how to run a country in charge

                      E This user is from outside of this forum
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                      wrote last edited by
                      #261

                      You should try the every time somebody gets unhappy they splinter off and form their own party political system. It essentially amounts to the two-party system in any case but provides more entertainment.

                      S 1 Reply Last reply
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                      • P [email protected]

                        If you're throwing the word "liberals" around, you're an authoritarian, which is no better than being a fascist.

                        This is why I can't stand Tankies and establishment Democrats. You can't claim to be a champion of human rights, while simultaneously supporting the governments that egregiously violate peoples' human rights. Complete and utter hypocrites.

                        Edit: See what I mean? All of you suck.

                        E This user is from outside of this forum
                        E This user is from outside of this forum
                        [email protected]
                        wrote last edited by
                        #262

                        Perhaps you should broaden your horizons somewhat. Tankies are an international group whereas democrats only exist in the US, so you can't really compare the two. For one thing, they have different ultimate goals and motivations.

                        1 Reply Last reply
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                        • E [email protected]

                          "poor management" is one hell of a way to put it.

                          ivanafterall@lemmy.worldI This user is from outside of this forum
                          ivanafterall@lemmy.worldI This user is from outside of this forum
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                          wrote last edited by
                          #263

                          I mean, even the Holocaust could also be said to boil down to poor management if we're just doing shitty arguments.

                          A G 2 Replies Last reply
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                          • E [email protected]

                            You should try the every time somebody gets unhappy they splinter off and form their own party political system. It essentially amounts to the two-party system in any case but provides more entertainment.

                            S This user is from outside of this forum
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                            wrote last edited by
                            #264

                            Such an american comment. So indoctrinated into the two-party system that it's impossible to even imagine anything else.

                            Have you heard of the concept of coalitions?

                            T E 2 Replies Last reply
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                            • cowbee@lemmy.mlC [email protected]

                              Well, up front, it's nice that you at least cleared up that you don't consider Marxism to be socialist. I disagree with that, of course, but now that we've established that your definition of socialism is exclusionary of Marxism, then that does at least mean we can have a consistent conversation.

                              As for delegates vs. representatives, the PRC's democracy extends beyond simply voting for candidates and representatives. I already explained that each rung makes decisions for that which their area needs, and elect from among themselves delegates that they can recall. People's integration into politics isn't relegated to simple elections, but consensus building, feedback, drafts of policy, etc.

                              As for ownership, your argument was that politicians are literally owners of publicly owned industry, which isn't how public ownership works anywhere. Even if the PRC is centrally planned for the majority of its large firms and key industries, that doesn't mean those large firms and key industries are run for profit, personal enrichment of capitalists, participate in markets, etc. There's nothing at all resembling capitalism there, so state capitalism is an absurdity. I gave clear examples of capitalist systems with heavy state involvement, like Singapore, that better fit "state capitalism."

                              Either way, this will be my last comment too. Have a good one!

                              rivvvver@lemmy.dbzer0.comR This user is from outside of this forum
                              rivvvver@lemmy.dbzer0.comR This user is from outside of this forum
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                              wrote last edited by
                              #265

                              cowbee@lemmy.mlC 1 Reply Last reply
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                              • rivvvver@lemmy.dbzer0.comR [email protected]

                                cowbee@lemmy.mlC This user is from outside of this forum
                                cowbee@lemmy.mlC This user is from outside of this forum
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                                wrote last edited by
                                #266

                                Again, I'm aware of the anarchist critique, I used to be an anarchist myself, I just firmly disagree with it.

                                rivvvver@lemmy.dbzer0.comR 1 Reply Last reply
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                                • cowbee@lemmy.mlC [email protected]

                                  Again, I'm aware of the anarchist critique, I used to be an anarchist myself, I just firmly disagree with it.

                                  rivvvver@lemmy.dbzer0.comR This user is from outside of this forum
                                  rivvvver@lemmy.dbzer0.comR This user is from outside of this forum
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                                  wrote last edited by
                                  #267

                                  yes, well, if u had watched it, u wouldve noticed its not about the anarchist critique.

                                  cowbee@lemmy.mlC 1 Reply Last reply
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                                  • S [email protected]

                                    Such an american comment. So indoctrinated into the two-party system that it's impossible to even imagine anything else.

                                    Have you heard of the concept of coalitions?

                                    T This user is from outside of this forum
                                    T This user is from outside of this forum
                                    [email protected]
                                    wrote last edited by
                                    #268

                                    Americans informally create coalitions. That's why you hear the term "caucus" a lot more often, like Bernie Sanders "caucusing" with Democrats. Many libertarians may not like Trump and the fascist Republicans, but they still caucus together. The problem with caucusing with Democratic party is that they sideline the left, especially Bernie Sanders, in favour of more corporate friendly candidates. As for the Republican party, well the right always act right and value group cohesion and appeasing the rich more, even if they become fascist.

                                    Caucusing is hardly working and here is the hard to swallow pill for Americans: organise grassroots campaigns and plant actual progressives into primaries. Americans used to be good at doing that. That's how they got the Roosevelts, ended the first Gilded Age, and third party candidates being elected more. The duopoly system became entrenched sometime after the early 1900's, probably when Theodore Roosevelt ran third party and split the vote of progressives, which handed the presidency to the racist Woodrow Wilson.

                                    S 1 Reply Last reply
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                                    • underpantsweevil@lemmy.worldU [email protected]

                                      Leninism, Anarcho-primitivism and Social democracy (for example) are not different approaches to “leftism” that ultimately want the same things; they are completely separate ideologies that naturally come into conflict.

                                      In a fascist dictatorship, they have a lot more in common than opposition. What's more, there's ample room for compromise when members of these caucuses are able to communicate and collaborate freely.

                                      The biggest hurdle to Left Unity I consistently see is Liberal Wreckers stepping in to insist any one ascendant philosophy is unserious and counterproductive, right before they form a coalition with corporationists and fascists.

                                      you should give up the idea that all “leftists” are somehow natural allies

                                      There's a material basis of alliance that stems from the communities that form the base of each faction.

                                      The idea that a Social Democrat like Lulu or Sheinbaum can't form coalition with Anarcho-Prim native people in the rural Brazilian/Southern Mexican territories is demonstrably untrue.

                                      The idea that a Leninist like Castro or Mandela couldn't lead a popular Socialist revolution in Cuba or South Africa is demonstrably untrue.

                                      The idea that Bookchin-style Eco-socialists can't find allies in Xi's China or among the Maoist factions of North India is demonstrably untrue.

                                      It takes work and it takes the right historical moment, but not everything has to end like the Spanish Civil War. Left Alliance isn't some impossible dream.

                                      K This user is from outside of this forum
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                                      wrote last edited by
                                      #269

                                      In a fascist dictatorship, they have a lot more in common than opposition.

                                      But if the dictatorship is a communist one they have more in common with the nazis! Or if your country is invaded by Russia you might find yourself fighting side by side with the Azov battalion.

                                      There are libertarians who genuinely care about free speech and might make useful allies on those issues.

                                      Just because someone is the enemy of your enemy, or an occasionally useful ally, doesn't mean you want to unify with them.

                                      underpantsweevil@lemmy.worldU 1 Reply Last reply
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                                      • bad@jlai.luB [email protected]

                                        [dude with glasses in a communist t-shirt, arguing]
                                        I'm the only leftist here, your opinions are TRASH

                                        [dude holding a theory book on smug, arguing]
                                        Read theory you losers, you're all WRONG

                                        [dude in an anarchist hoodie, arguing]
                                        Nuh-uh, I'm the only leftist here, you're SHITLIBS

                                        [the three dudes are now caught in a cartoon fight, glasses gone flying, punches everywhere, while a firing squad of nazis are targeting them with rifles]

                                        [a confused nazi asks]
                                        Why… why are they still arguing?

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                                        Infighting | The Bad Website

                                        Infighting - A comic on The Bad Website

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                                        wrote last edited by
                                        #270

                                        Why are you all trying to have a serious discussion under a comic strip?

                                        K 1 Reply Last reply
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                                        • rivvvver@lemmy.dbzer0.comR [email protected]

                                          yes, well, if u had watched it, u wouldve noticed its not about the anarchist critique.

                                          cowbee@lemmy.mlC This user is from outside of this forum
                                          cowbee@lemmy.mlC This user is from outside of this forum
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                                          wrote last edited by [email protected]
                                          #271

                                          I did watch it, just posting a 4 minute video from an anarchist YouTuber doesn't mean I immediately need to agree with it. Anark coats it as a Marxist critique, but it's thoroughly an anarchist critique attempting to claim higher and universal legitimacy by invoking Marx and Engels, but what Marx and Engels described as state capitalism was Bismarck's Germany, which had the large firms and key industries absolutely privately owned with minor exceptions like railways.

                                          The state in Bismarck's Germany played a hand in directing the private economy, while retaining class relations. It wasn't because they had a state, it's because the base of production was capitalism, subject to the M-C...P...C'-M' circuit. Anark's critique is ignorant at best to dishonest at worst. Here's Engels directly speaking about it:

                                          For only when the means of production and distribution have actually outgrown the form of management by joint-stock companies, and when, therefore, the taking them over by the State has become economically inevitable, only then — even if it is the State of today that effects this — is there an economic advance, the attainment of another step preliminary to the taking over of all productive forces by society itself. But of late, since Bismarck went in for State-ownership of industrial establishments, a kind of spurious Socialism has arisen, degenerating, now and again, into something of flunkyism, that without more ado declares all State-ownership, even of the Bismarkian sort, to be socialistic. Certainly, if the taking over by the State of the tobacco industry is socialistic, then Napoleon and Metternich must be numbered among the founders of Socialism. If the Belgian State, for quite ordinary political and financial reasons, itself constructed its chief railway lines; if Bismarck, not under any economic compulsion, took over for the State the chief Prussian lines, simply to be the better able to have them in hand in case of war, to bring up the railway employees as voting cattle for the Government, and especially to create for himself a new source of income independent of parliamentary votes — this was, in no sense, a socialistic measure, directly or indirectly, consciously or unconsciously. Otherwise, the Royal Maritime Company, the Royal porcelain manufacture, and even the regimental tailor of the army would also be socialistic institutions, or even, as was seriously proposed by a sly dog in Frederick William III's reign, the taking over by the State of the brothels.

                                          Instead, what needs to happen is proletarian revolution, and gradual appropriation of property into the hands of the new, proletarian state, until all property is collectivized and the proletarian state is no more:

                                          When, at last, it becomes the real representative of the whole of society, it renders itself unnecessary. As soon as there is no longer any social class to be held in subjection; as soon as class rule, and the individual struggle for existence based upon our present anarchy in production, with the collisions and excesses arising from these, are removed, nothing more remains to be repressed, and a special repressive force, a State, is no longer necessary. The first act by virtue of which the State really constitutes itself the representative of the whole of society — the taking possession of the means of production in the name of society — this is, at the same time, its last independent act as a State. State interference in social relations becomes, in one domain after another, superfluous, and then dies out of itself; the government of persons is replaced by the administration of things, and by the conduct of processes of production. The State is not "abolished". It dies out. This gives the measure of the value of the phrase: "a free State", both as to its justifiable use at times by agitators, and as to its ultimate scientific inefficiency; and also of the demands of the so-called anarchists for the abolition of the State out of hand.

                                          So yes, I did watch it. It's one of those videos that only really makes sense to people that haven't put in the time to take Marxism seriously, and just want to quotegrab Marx and Engels to give their points higher legitimacy. Even Anark's examples of Chile and Yugoslavia were more market-focused and less collectivized, Yugoslavia in particular relied on IMF loans to keep going. Anark's mislabling of socialism as intrinsically worker-ownership and not collectivized ownership pretty much leaves only anarchism and anarchist adjacent ideologies as socialist. And, the USSR and PRC, Cuba, etc. do have worker democracy:

                                          I'm sorry I took your video seriously, I guess? I dunno, were you just wanting me to concede the point outright?

                                          rivvvver@lemmy.dbzer0.comR 1 Reply Last reply
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