Infighting
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This isn't infighting between liberals and leftists, this is infighting between different flavours of leftism, like anarchism and marxist-leninism.
Or Marxism and Marxist-leninist.
Say what you will about Democrats. Outside of the elected ones. Most of them don't have a strong ideology. Just actually wanting things to improve. But I'm sure of how to go about it. And when you approach them like that. Are plenty likely to be sympathetic and allies.
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Oh God yes Jubilee and that surrounded bs. Though the recent one with Jordan Peterson was somewhat cathartic. Yeah they get some of the most toxic ones.
Yep the majority of them are more like my brother-in-law or my SO. She at least realized back in February the mistake she made. Though I can understand it. As a military daughter who spent her life going from Base to Base as her father moved them around the world. Republican bullshit is sort of ingrained in her family. And she doesn't actually engage with a lot of the news personally. Instead it gets filtered to her through family.
Brother-in-law came from a privileged bougie family. They own a number of stores in the area. All the fancy tchotchkies as a child. Summers and other regular holidays throughout the year at the lake. Started out from 3rd and thought he made a home run. With a very similar story. Hereditary republicanism. No critical thinking. For One Shining Moment talking about how Democrats and Republicans both suck. On which we could agree. Only to inevitably return back to the Republican talking points. That situation is a whole other shit sandwich unfortunately though.
Just as a tangent, Jubilee and ALL the related content-farmers on Youtube, Tiktok and other social media platforms are radically skewing our own perceptions as well as that of the right. They are the enemy of our better tomorrow.
We're all getting lost down ideological, algorithmic bubble-worlds but the worlds look so different it's hard for us to identify that we're also being manipulated.
This is another area you can find common-ground with the right, and a way to get them to start realizing they're being played and cucked by corporate elites. (Use that language.)
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If you are focused on organization and outreach. Maybe it’s worth considering finding a new instance that would would help in fostering that.
I'm not trying to be glib, I don't think any instances are good for that, I use other platforms with more reach for that sort of thing.
I come here because I can see what other anarchists and Marxists are saying about the news and shoot the shit with them. Plus I can access the largest trans instances from here, I don't really have any ambitions beyond that.
Fair enough. I can do that as well. Just without all the domain baggage. And if it is something that bothers you. It's something to look at. Something I saw you actually cop to elsewhere on the topic.
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Just as a tangent, Jubilee and ALL the related content-farmers on Youtube, Tiktok and other social media platforms are radically skewing our own perceptions as well as that of the right. They are the enemy of our better tomorrow.
We're all getting lost down ideological, algorithmic bubble-worlds but the worlds look so different it's hard for us to identify that we're also being manipulated.
This is another area you can find common-ground with the right, and a way to get them to start realizing they're being played and cucked by corporate elites. (Use that language.)
Absolutely. None of us are immune to propaganda or our own biases.
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You knew it was going there because the Democratic party refuses to listen to reason and continues to drift further and further rightto the point that we just had two candidates promoting genocide, attacking immigrants, attacking the poor, and palling around with Dick Cheney. It's funny that you'd rather attack the critics than dare speak out against the actual perpetrators of this abhorrent behavior. Attack the victim not the victimizer.
Democratic sycophants are becoming almost indistinguishable from their MAGA counterparts these days. You guys are all using the exact same language.
Get.Yourshit.Together. If you can’t bring yourself to vote for the DNC, and you can’t get anything else going, you’re wasting your own time and sinking the rest of us.
And what will you be doing in the meantime other than attacking those who actually want things to improve?
And what will you be doing in the meantime other than attacking those who actually want things to improve?
What like accusing them of being soulless wholly-owned corporate shitlibs who are token opposition with their money-stained fingers on the scales, gladly supporting genocide, being the same as literal nazi fascists, and kicking down all the good-hearted people who want things to improve?
I mean . . . I could. But that just wouldn’t be very productive would it.
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Grass is dangerous, specially if you have allergies. My advice is to never touch grass!
LOL as someone with significant autoimmune issues this rings to true.
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Fair enough. I can do that as well. Just without all the domain baggage. And if it is something that bothers you. It's something to look at. Something I saw you actually cop to elsewhere on the topic.
I mean while it is annoying getting called a red fascist out of pure tribal reaction, I'm also pretty stubborn when it comes to peer pressure
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I mean while it is annoying getting called a red fascist out of pure tribal reaction, I'm also pretty stubborn when it comes to peer pressure
Heh I think that describes most of us on the fediverse and why we are the way we are.
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[dude with glasses in a communist t-shirt, arguing]
I'm the only leftist here, your opinions are TRASH[dude holding a theory book on smug, arguing]
Read theory you losers, you're all WRONG[dude in an anarchist hoodie, arguing]
Nuh-uh, I'm the only leftist here, you're SHITLIBS[the three dudes are now caught in a cartoon fight, glasses gone flying, punches everywhere, while a firing squad of nazis are targeting them with rifles]
[a confused nazi asks]
Why… why are they still arguing?
Infighting | The Bad Website
Infighting - A comic on The Bad Website
The Bad Website (thebad.website)
The idea that all "leftists" should just work together is stupid.
Leninism, Anarcho-primitivism and Social democracy (for example) are not different approaches to "leftism" that ultimately want the same things; they are completely separate ideologies that naturally come into conflict. The people who follow them disagree with each other because they want and value completely different things. If they were to put aside their differences there would be nothing left.
That doesn't mean arguing on the internet about ideology is meaningful, or that there can't be common goals or enemies, just that you should give up the idea that all "leftists" are somehow natural allies, because it doesn't make any sense.
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Under capitalism you can criticize capitalism. under communism, dissension is met with punishment.
If not death, or being institutionalised.
But you can also get institutionalised or killed under capitalism too if you say the wrong things (China, Russia, the Gulf States).
While you might not be killed in the US, but you can be harassed via lawsuits or deported to a foreign internment camp if you say the wrong things.
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The idea that all "leftists" should just work together is stupid.
Leninism, Anarcho-primitivism and Social democracy (for example) are not different approaches to "leftism" that ultimately want the same things; they are completely separate ideologies that naturally come into conflict. The people who follow them disagree with each other because they want and value completely different things. If they were to put aside their differences there would be nothing left.
That doesn't mean arguing on the internet about ideology is meaningful, or that there can't be common goals or enemies, just that you should give up the idea that all "leftists" are somehow natural allies, because it doesn't make any sense.
I believe you are missing the forest for the trees.
First, I acknowledge your examples are separate ideologies.That concept also applies to the right... social conservatives, right-libertarians, and neoliberal ideologies are equally separate. However, those practitioners have no qualms about banding together to suppress dissent (or until such time they are the only voices).
Where the left leaning practitioners are unable to do so, they will be forever tyrannized by the banded majority.
To put it more succinctly, the enemy of my enemy is my friend (when freedom is on the line).
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"My own entitlement and vindictive emotional state is far more important than broad policy measures to make the best outcomes for the most people." - Tankies
Nazisedit: I will forever smirk that over a third of the people who read this felt "Well they don't understand that MY emotions are special, the unrealistic things I want are more important than any of those other things! How dare they equate my feelings with those of nazis, those creatures weren't even human, unlike me!"
"I support genocide"
Anti-tankies
Nazis -
That's my point. USSR and the CCP have arguably permanently damaged the communism "brand".
And you talked to russians, things were even worse for nations occupied by the russians.
It took centuries before any liberal or democratic project managed to produce a society that wasn't far more brutal than the USSR. Yet you don't see people going around saying "the French Revolution permanently damaged the Democratic brand!"
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Yes, we need a "brand" that builds upon the ideals (and some of the theory) of communism/Marxism while taking in account both history (e.g. even something as simple as democratic governance being non-negotiable) and the "spirit" and challenges of our times.
So, utopianism.
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I've found that even if you do this, it doesn't really alter their behavior. A moment of consensus is never going to be enough.
People need to treat this kind of stuff like breaking someone from a drug addiction or helping someone lose weight. Without addressing the lifestyle factors that drove them down that path, you'll never get them to actually change.
That's why the brainwashing is so terrifying. People can fall into it pretty quickly and then it can take years and years to deprogram them.
Fair enough, though I do think this can still help with any broader approach to changing their overall mentality.
A moment of consensus on its own might not be enough to sway someone, but if they hear someone try and contradict what they had recently agreed on, it can then make them feel more cognitive dissonance, and potentially make them at the bare minimum just stop and think for a second.
If someone else is later trying to sway them in some way, it's going to be easier when that person says something, and they can think "I remember saying something similar" rather than "this is the opposite of what I already believe."
Plus, there's also just the sort of "exposure therapy" factor to it, as well. A lot of people are radicalized to believe that the "opposing side" is pure, limitless evil, and that they hate you and want you dead, so just interacting with them can be enough to help slowly deradicalize them.
For example, this Pew Research article states, regarding the likelihood of people to support trans people's existence:
"Though Republicans who know a trans person are more likely than Republicans who don’t to say gender can be different from sex assigned at birth, more than eight-in-ten in both groups (83% and 88%, respectively) say gender is determined by sex at birth. Meanwhile, there are large differences between Democrats who do and do not know a transgender person. A majority of Democrats who do know a trans person (72%) say someone can be a man or a woman even if that differs from their sex assigned at birth, while those who don’t know anyone who is transgender are about evenly split (48% say gender is determined by sex assigned at birth while 51% say it can be different)."
But of course, that isn't just limited to acceptance of people by gender. It also applies to race, social and economic status, recipients and non-recipients of welfare programs, people working in different industries, etc.
Again, not saying it's at all some magic universal way to change someone's mind, or that on its own it's necessarily a factor that can override their overarching condition, (hell, that quote from before shows that it had a much smaller impact on republicans than democrats even given the same exposure) but the more and more this happens, the stronger and stronger an effect it has overall, and I'd say that alone makes it worth doing.
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We’ve also seen years of what Russia in its current state and Putin are capable of. None of it is good. Hell, when I was more active in activist circles I was in very close proximity to a Russian-driven disinformation campaign in 2016 that used and exploited leftist organizations for its own benefit. It wasn’t some “hey, we’re friends” situation; it was the Kremlin using and disposing of people to destabilize in the same way the US and western powers have for decades themselves. Hitching your wagon to other political powers is a shit idea. There is a reason I don’t trust any politician.
I was in very close proximity to a Russian-driven disinformation campaign in 2016 that used and exploited leftist organizations for its own benefit.
How did you uncover this information?
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Exactly, all authoritarians (far left/far right) can suck a big fat one. They are always the best boot lickers.
This person has previously advocated for hanging people for treason.
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I'm anti authoritarian and anti right. Tankies are leftists that I have no interest in getting along with. They are just as excited to be holding the gun in this comic
This "anti-authoritarian" recently called for mass execution of their enemies.
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Yes, leninists are nominally on the left. Nominally. However throughout history most similar ideologies have consistently exterminated executed and oppressed everyone that ever disagreed with them. Allies or not. Left or right. Which makes them authoritarian and untrustworthy first. Left at their convenience.
As an anarchist, I have no major beef with actual communist. While I will disagree a lot with demsoc or socdems. I have no issue allying with them where we agree. Because even though we disagree, on the things we agree on. I know they are just as committed, and won't turn on us the moment it's convenient.
But I'm all too familiar with the type that behave like the comic. I think we all are. Anyone using the term shitlib or blue maga for instance.
As an anarchist
You aren't an anarchist though, you've never actually expressed anarchists beliefs: you're a hard core DNC supporter and liberal. There's a reason your main complaint is people using terms like "shitlib" and "bluemaga", because those are what you are.
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This isn't infighting between liberals and leftists, this is infighting between different flavours of leftism, like anarchism and marxist-leninism.
You're reading a different set of comments to me then, the ones I'm seeing are full of bluemaga liberals like Optional or Eldritch insisting that "left unity" means getting behind the Democrats and left punching communists.
