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Infighting

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  • ivanafterall@lemmy.worldI [email protected]

    I mean, even the Holocaust could also be said to boil down to poor management if we're just doing shitty arguments.

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    wrote last edited by
    #281

    The holocaust was the result of pretty effective management, only possible with the latest technology, courtesy of IBM.

    What lesson do libs and anarchists take away from the holodomer anyway? Don't try to redistribute grain or stop hording during a famine?

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    • cowbee@lemmy.mlC [email protected]

      I looked it up, and yep, looks like the PCF abandoned Marxism-Leninism in 1979 and adopted Eurocommunism, which is a vulgarization of Marxism that upholds western imperialism. MLs would consider them to be patsocs, same as the American Communist Party which espouses "MAGA Communism."

      irelephant@lemmy.dbzer0.comI This user is from outside of this forum
      irelephant@lemmy.dbzer0.comI This user is from outside of this forum
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      wrote last edited by
      #282

      I thought maga communism was a joke.

      cowbee@lemmy.mlC 1 Reply Last reply
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      • irelephant@lemmy.dbzer0.comI [email protected]

        I thought maga communism was a joke.

        cowbee@lemmy.mlC This user is from outside of this forum
        cowbee@lemmy.mlC This user is from outside of this forum
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        wrote last edited by
        #283

        We all wish it was...

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        • slvrdrgn@lemmy.worldS [email protected]

          This is why far "left" and "right" are itself misguided labels. It's more like far opposite on the other end where they meet.

          irelephant@lemmy.dbzer0.comI This user is from outside of this forum
          irelephant@lemmy.dbzer0.comI This user is from outside of this forum
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          wrote last edited by
          #284

          Horseshoe theory is literally just

          B slvrdrgn@lemmy.worldS 2 Replies Last reply
          5
          • F [email protected]

            I believe you are missing the forest for the trees.
            First, I acknowledge your examples are separate ideologies.

            That concept also applies to the right... social conservatives, right-libertarians, and neoliberal ideologies are equally separate. However, those practitioners have no qualms about banding together to suppress dissent (or until such time they are the only voices).

            Where the left leaning practitioners are unable to do so, they will be forever tyrannized by the banded majority.

            To put it more succinctly, the enemy of my enemy is my friend (when freedom is on the line).

            T This user is from outside of this forum
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            wrote last edited by
            #285

            Where the left leaning practitioners are unable to do so, they will be forever tyrannized by the banded majority.

            You are assuming no ideological changes of opinion are possible or useful.

            People that vote right wing aren't better off just because they voted that way. They're not tyrants oppressing the left, they're fellow citizens who get oppressed just as much. Their vote for the winning team doesn't win them anything.

            The solution to right-wing banding isn't left wing banding, it's disbanding the right wing by showing its voters that they're being had. And that takes a cohesive and functional alternative.

            Leftist "infighting" is healthy. It's a process of discovering these alternatives, and it regularly churns out consensus issues such as consent-based queer rights, veganism, not funding genocide, and how the US government is now fascist.

            Over time these issues get normalized through leftist action until liberal centrists rewrite the histories as if they are responsible for producing them through liberal democracy.

            To put it more succinctly, the enemy of my enemy is my friend (when freedom is on the line).

            Daily reminder that the DNC does not acknowledge that the US government is now fascist. Uniting under a common front doesn't mean we fight fascism together, it means we canvas for votes until we're black bagged one by one.

            Ultimately it is important to vote in every election for a candidate that has a good chance of actually getting in to represent you, but that is just one day every year or two. Everything else should be dedicated to finding and testing these alternatives.

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            • K [email protected]

              Where else should we have a serious discussion?

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              wrote last edited by
              #286

              In a comic strip club.

              1 Reply Last reply
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              • L [email protected]

                The People's Front of Judea vs the Judean People's Front

                S This user is from outside of this forum
                S This user is from outside of this forum
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                wrote last edited by
                #287

                SPLITTERS!

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                • irelephant@lemmy.dbzer0.comI [email protected]

                  Horseshoe theory is literally just

                  B This user is from outside of this forum
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                  wrote last edited by
                  #288

                  Yeah, that really nails it.

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                  • underpantsweevil@lemmy.worldU [email protected]

                    the dictatorship is a communist one

                    A dictatorship of the proletariat and a dictatorship of the bourgeois are actually the same thing, you idiot, you imbecile.

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                    wrote last edited by
                    #289

                    I was considering putting scare quotes around "communism", but refrained in order to avoid an argument about what is and isn't really communism. Yet here we are. So much for left unity! ;D

                    underpantsweevil@lemmy.worldU 1 Reply Last reply
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                    • K [email protected]

                      I was considering putting scare quotes around "communism", but refrained in order to avoid an argument about what is and isn't really communism. Yet here we are. So much for left unity! ;D

                      underpantsweevil@lemmy.worldU This user is from outside of this forum
                      underpantsweevil@lemmy.worldU This user is from outside of this forum
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                      wrote last edited by [email protected]
                      #290

                      Of course. Real Communism is everything except AES. As soon as leftists begin making any kind of public policy decisions, they become reactionaries because the anti-communists in the US media told me so.

                      We're already seeing this in the NYC Mayoral Race and Mamdani isn't even elected yet.

                      1 Reply Last reply
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                      • irelephant@lemmy.dbzer0.comI [email protected]

                        Horseshoe theory is literally just

                        slvrdrgn@lemmy.worldS This user is from outside of this forum
                        slvrdrgn@lemmy.worldS This user is from outside of this forum
                        [email protected]
                        wrote last edited by
                        #291

                        Okay yeah I see what you mean.
                        I rescind my original post.

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                        • K [email protected]

                          Where else should we have a serious discussion?

                          B This user is from outside of this forum
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                          wrote last edited by
                          #292

                          You can try to have a serious discussion where you want but don't expect to get anything much serious out of comic strips and memes.

                          1 Reply Last reply
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                          • B [email protected]

                            This is false.

                            Well, I don't see any point trying to continue to have a discussion with someone who's just a blunt genocide denier.

                            Suffice to say, to all your arguments: This is false.

                            jbone@lemmy.dbzer0.comJ This user is from outside of this forum
                            jbone@lemmy.dbzer0.comJ This user is from outside of this forum
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                            wrote last edited by
                            #293

                            How am I a genocide denier? Which genocide did I deny?

                            Why are you putting words in my mouth?

                            B 1 Reply Last reply
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                            • jbone@lemmy.dbzer0.comJ [email protected]

                              How am I a genocide denier? Which genocide did I deny?

                              Why are you putting words in my mouth?

                              B This user is from outside of this forum
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                              wrote last edited by
                              #294

                              I quoted you directly

                              jbone@lemmy.dbzer0.comJ 1 Reply Last reply
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                              • B [email protected]

                                I quoted you directly

                                jbone@lemmy.dbzer0.comJ This user is from outside of this forum
                                jbone@lemmy.dbzer0.comJ This user is from outside of this forum
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                                wrote last edited by [email protected]
                                #295

                                I didn't deny any genocide. And if you knew me better, you would understand how stupid this statement is.

                                I said your statement that liberal democracies have killed more people than regimes that are seen to be associated with communism is false.

                                To be frank with you, I think you are projecting an image of an enemy on me.

                                I do not like oligarchs, especially American ones because of their impact and their tendecy towards degeneracy.

                                I already told you I found standard US copytext around alleged differences between socialism and capitalism to be comically dumb. It's one of the reasons why my default mode of thinking is to assume that the content of common American socio-economic arguement is gibberish (unless proven otherwise).

                                I think Marx is prophetic and I believe his ideas will actually be realized in the future (maybe not in our lifetimes). In contrast the theological thought leaders of US-stope oligarchy (Friedman and other "economists") will go down in history as liars and criminal enablers; evil people.

                                That being said, communism as perceived by wider society is a dead end.

                                What we need is a new movement that reflects the dialectical materialism of the information age and offers a different mode of economic relationships to the oligarch regimes and the type of relationships that people associate with the word "communism".

                                I think we agree on a lot more things than you think, with the exception of "communism" as a brand, as opposed to it's end goals.

                                B 1 Reply Last reply
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                                • bad@jlai.luB [email protected]

                                  [dude with glasses in a communist t-shirt, arguing]
                                  I'm the only leftist here, your opinions are TRASH

                                  [dude holding a theory book on smug, arguing]
                                  Read theory you losers, you're all WRONG

                                  [dude in an anarchist hoodie, arguing]
                                  Nuh-uh, I'm the only leftist here, you're SHITLIBS

                                  [the three dudes are now caught in a cartoon fight, glasses gone flying, punches everywhere, while a firing squad of nazis are targeting them with rifles]

                                  [a confused nazi asks]
                                  Why… why are they still arguing?

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                                  wrote last edited by
                                  #296

                                  A professor in college once said something that stayed with me. He said that "bad ideologies will always find ways to self implode".

                                  This stuck with me because it's true. Good ideologies tend to be pragmatic and flexible, and so they're able to adapt and evolve. However, bad ideologies tend to be more rigid and focus mostly on theories and ideals, and therefore they're unable to adapt or evolve. Far left ideologies firmly fall in the latter category which is why they are where they are.

                                  rivvvver@lemmy.dbzer0.comR 1 Reply Last reply
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                                  • Z [email protected]

                                    People, people, people, we can kill each other AFTER the fascist are gone, please and thank you.

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                                    wrote last edited by
                                    #297

                                    A lot of the far left types would rather have fascists rule and ruin everything just to spite their opposition rather than make compromises by working with them.

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                                    • I [email protected]

                                      I feel like the nazis should be congratulating themselves on sowing discord, distracting those that could resist with bullshit

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                                      wrote last edited by
                                      #298

                                      The infighting amongst the left is entirely self inflected

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                                      • abbotsbury@lemmy.worldA [email protected]

                                        The only thing that matters is policy, I'll work with anyone as long as it's toward an egalitarian society with wealth redistribution.

                                        Labels are nice for classifying, but not for executing. I don't care if you identify as leftist, or liberal, or progressive; I care if you support good policies.

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                                        wrote last edited by
                                        #299

                                        The issue is that you're a minority in your camp. Broadly speaking, the left sees compromise as weakness, neutrality as cowardice, working with opposition towards a common cause as treachery. These are all symptoms of purity testing, and it's the reason why the left in so many places is completely paralyzed.

                                        abbotsbury@lemmy.worldA 1 Reply Last reply
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                                        • ivanafterall@lemmy.worldI [email protected]

                                          I mean, even the Holocaust could also be said to boil down to poor management if we're just doing shitty arguments.

                                          G This user is from outside of this forum
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                                          wrote last edited by
                                          #300

                                          The Holocaust was so devastating because the Nazis were incredibly efficient. Soviet genocides didn't rely on efficiency, but malicious negligence.

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