We’ve also seen years of what Russia in its current state and Putin are capable of. None of it is good. Hell, when I was more active in activist circles I was in very close proximity to a Russian-driven disinformation campaign in 2016 that used and exploited leftist organizations for its own benefit. It wasn’t some “hey, we’re friends” situation; it was the Kremlin using and disposing of people to destabilize in the same way the US and western powers have for decades themselves. Hitching your wagon to other political powers is a shit idea. There is a reason I don’t trust any politician.

Exactly, all authoritarians (far left/far right) can suck a big fat one. They are always the best boot lickers.

I'm anti authoritarian and anti right. Tankies are leftists that I have no interest in getting along with. They are just as excited to be holding the gun in this comic

Yes, leninists are nominally on the left. Nominally. However throughout history most similar ideologies have consistently exterminated executed and oppressed everyone that ever disagreed with them. Allies or not. Left or right. Which makes them authoritarian and untrustworthy first. Left at their convenience.

As an anarchist, I have no major beef with actual communist. While I will disagree a lot with demsoc or socdems. I have no issue allying with them where we agree. Because even though we disagree, on the things we agree on. I know they are just as committed, and won't turn on us the moment it's convenient.

But I'm all too familiar with the type that behave like the comic. I think we all are. Anyone using the term shitlib or blue maga for instance.

This isn't infighting between liberals and leftists, this is infighting between different flavours of leftism, like anarchism and marxist-leninism.

You're from .ml, your opinion on tankies is coming from inside the house.

Frankly history has shown what happens to leftists who side with tankies. I for one will never be making that mistake again.

This "anti-authoritarian" recently called for mass execution of their enemies.

No. I've seen marxist-leninists, maoists, and anyone in that area of thought arguing the following:

• LGBTQ+ identities are bourgeois degeneracy
• Trans people are a capitalist invention to divide workers
• Nazis have a point when it comes to nationalism
• Assad and Putin are leftists
• Anarchism has never been tried successfully (because every time someone tried they got betrayed by MLs and executed by them for wrongthink)
• Animal Farm is capitalist propaganda
• Killing millions of people is necessary for a better world
• States are 100% necessary for the development of socialism
• China is communist or will be communist by 2050
• Ukraine is a Nazi state who deserves to be invaded
• Russia taking children from Ukraine and relocating them is just them being nice and removing them out of the warzone
• Anarchists are all children who don't know better
• The socialist state must uphold "traditional values"
• Stalin exclusively killed Nazis
• The only valid leftist theory is the one that argues Marxism-Leninism is correct
• "Socialist" police are a good thing because they don't serve capital, they serve the people
• Leftists who don't agree with us are enemies of the revolution and should be enslaved because they will attempt to overthrow our successful socialist state

If you think ANY of those arguments are valid for leftism, then I'm sorry, but I don't want you around me.

Are you saying nutomic is a troll?

Most communist don't identify as that because of the way leninist and Maoist have soiled it.

"I support genocide"

Anti-tankies Nazis

I'm not so focused to keep lists Etc myself. However if you are interested in learning a bit more about it all. There are actually a few communities dedicated to it. Don't just take anything there as gospel though. Critical thinking is always good to employ. And even then it might just come down to who you decide you want to believe. However massive amounts of hypocritical behavior to me would indicate less trustworthiness.

Meanwhileongrad has a lot of it. Just bear in mind. Where people will stand is often more about what they do than even what they say.

Those people were not being ironic, no. I think it's just a phenomenon that is excessively more common amongst internet MLs. Real life MLs are okay for the most part. Internet MLs are pretty much a cult that will try to take over ANY leftist community or be the dominant form of leftist discourse through any means necessary and will excessively push propaganda from literal fascists because they happen to be against liberals.

All I'm saying is that an embarrassing amount of leftists are terminally online and unable to do anything to try to push leftism other than argue with liberals online and spout hate towards those they see as "betraying" leftism. Those people don't actually do any organization IRL, which to me is a blessing... but sometimes that doesn't work. Brazil, and by extension all of South America, has a very bad problem with MLs dominating online AND IRL discourse, making it hard for other forms of leftism to be considered or even debated in good faith.

First I agree that marxists are generally chill it's the hyphenated ones that typically are not. And because we can agree on that. I think we should be able to agree that they aren't who is being pictured above in the comic.

Perhaps it was misunderstanding, perhaps it was talking past each other. Either way fair enough.

Others get the same treatment. I can count plenty of times where I've been told similar because I post from a .world domain. The difference being, of course correct me if I am wrong. That our administrators don't tend to be as problematic. It isn't 2019 anymore. ML isn't the only server. If you are focused on organization and outreach. Maybe it's worth considering finding a new instance that would would help in fostering that.

As I syndicist I absolutely gave some thought about joining an instance that better reflected my sensibilities. Though some recent events have definitely made me reconsider on that. I honestly think I'm happy an a much more diverse platform. Even if on the fediverse our diversity is pretty homogenic.

Fair enough. I can do that as well. Just without all the domain baggage. And if it is something that bothers you. It's something to look at. Something I saw you actually cop to elsewhere on the topic.

Real life marxists tend to be okay, I don't mind them. But, online those people literally try to dominate ALL discourse in leftism to the point where every single contact people have with leftists is someone who believes those things unironically.

As an anarchist

You aren't an anarchist though, you've never actually expressed anarchists beliefs: you're a hard core DNC supporter and liberal. There's a reason your main complaint is people using terms like "shitlib" and "bluemaga", because those are what you are.

No, but we don't have the popularity and support to elect good candidates yet, so right now it's a choice between bad and worse. We should be doing what we can to avoid worse.

Yeah, certainly no baggage on .world...

My whole point was about primaries, but even still he's polling well in the lead. If he wins will you admit that it can be done?

Winning a primary doesn't mean much if the party crushes you in the general. I hope he wins and I would be happy to admit I was wrong if he makes it and actually lives up to his word once in office.

Okay, what's your point? That the same population that's too apathetic to vote in a primary are going to what, pick up arms and take to the streets? Organize behind and promote a minority party? How do you plan to build a coalition behind an objectively more difficult and unlikely strategy? You don't.

Mamdani, and several other leftist candidates have been running exceptionally successful grassroots campaigns through social media and hitting the streets. We live in the information age, viral community-driven campaigns have the potential to reach more people than legacy media. And again, what alternative do you propose that will face less corporate opposition? You think the DNC is going to stay silent on third party candidates competing for their votes? You think corporate media is going to stay silent on any attempt at actual revolution? If the machine is so powerful, what action are you suggesting that can actually overcome it?

My point is that you're advocating for people to try and fix the system from within the broken system itself. Democratic and Republican primaries are completely controlled by these two private organizations not some overarching organization, people, or law. It's naive to think that you can somehow outplay the DNC (or RNC) leadership at a game they crafted and rigged themselves. It's like thinking you can outplay the house at a casino if you just use the right strategy. Even if you do somehow find a winning strategy, they'll just refuse to pay you, take you into the backroom, beat your ass, and then have police come haul you out for trespassing because the house always wins. You won't get better candidates by picking from the handful of predetermined candidates that the DNC offers you in their primary race whether 15% vote or 100% vote.

I don't know what the 'correct' approach is but I know it isn't this. Perhaps some actual grassroots organizations can put something together or an existing third party can take their placr, but regardless of what it is, it's not going to be something internal to these organizations, it has to come from the outside.

No I dont think the DNC or corporate media will ignore these events, they'll come out swinging like they did in 2008 with the Occupy Wall Street protests. They'll paint these outsiders as kooks and extremists and make them look like a joke on TV and the internet. You speak about the information age as if everyone is somehow more enlightened than generations past, yet we see people as a whole getting dumber and less informed as time goes on. We see the powerful using social media to spread a bunch of lies and disinformation. We see the truth being cast aside or drowned in a bunch of noise.

So long as elections in this country are FPTP, and leftists don't show up to primaries, and Republicans keep pushing Christo-fascism, then they are correct that it is the best option.

How are these people "the best option" in hindsight when we know for a fact that they lost the election? I find statements like this so utterly insane. You're referring to the very people that we unquestionably know weren't the best option by virtue of them losing these elections to a buffoon. This party of "the best options" were so 'good' that the Republicans control the entire government now.

Splitting the anti-Republican vote just helps the Republicans, and by extension the Heritage Foundation and Federalist Society. Personally, I'd rather have a Neo-Liberal government than a Christian Nationalist one, and there aren't any other options right now.

This is just the "vote blue no matter who" mentality i previously referred to phrased another way. Neo-Liberal governments have driven us to this point alongside the Christian Nationalists. They're both responsible for this and they're the ones determining the options we have. I legitimately cannot understand how someone like yourself can agree that we have terrible options while simultaneously arguing that we need to support the people determining said options. It'd be like going to a grocery store filled with rancid food and telling yourself that you need to choose something off the shelf because that particular store left you no other options. Why would you do that? Why reward that store with your hard earned money? It's such incredibly closed-minded behavior that harms your own self interests and not only are you advocating that you should shop there personally, but everyone else should too.

No disagreement here, but where's the incinerator and the power to throw them in it? If I had a magic wand that I could wave to erase both parties, I would. But I don't have that kind of magic wand, and neither do you. We have to operate in the environment we actually exist in. Idealism doesn't get us any closer to material change. Voting against the worst option is the best choice we have at the polls, until we can get seriously organized. Serious organization takes a lot of time and effort. Ignoring the material present for a vague idealist future is a massive strategic blunder.

The incinerator is your vote and what you decide to do with it. The environment we exist in isn't limited to these two private parties. That's just what they want you to believe. Sacrificing your ideals just to be disappointed and have things get worse because neo-liberals don't serve the American people isnt going to bring material change either. Doing the same thing every election isnt going to bring about change. Constantly "voting against the worst option" just means the next worse option can safely ignore you and refuse to improve things because they have you convinced that they're your only choice and therefore have no accountability to anyone. I'd argue that someone in your position is "ignoring the material present for some vague idealistic future." You think if the Dems can just win this next election they'll turn things around and eventually the Republicans will scurry off somewhere, but we've seen numerous times that even with a Democratic supermajority, they have no interest in fixing things and Republicans aren't going anywhere because they're doing the exact same thing to their base.

It's a lot harder to organize as a political prisoner in a concentration camp.

And regardless of which party wins any given election, we've been steadily approaching that reality with each passing day. Seems like a great wakeup call that some actual change is needed, no?

Sorry if I don't want to ally with people who constantly talk about killing other leftists (aka all of lemmy.ml).