Infighting
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That's my point. USSR and the CCP have arguably permanently damaged the communism "brand".
And you talked to russians, things were even worse for nations occupied by the russians.
It took centuries before any liberal or democratic project managed to produce a society that wasn't far more brutal than the USSR. Yet you don't see people going around saying "the French Revolution permanently damaged the Democratic brand!"
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Yes, we need a "brand" that builds upon the ideals (and some of the theory) of communism/Marxism while taking in account both history (e.g. even something as simple as democratic governance being non-negotiable) and the "spirit" and challenges of our times.
So, utopianism.
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I've found that even if you do this, it doesn't really alter their behavior. A moment of consensus is never going to be enough.
People need to treat this kind of stuff like breaking someone from a drug addiction or helping someone lose weight. Without addressing the lifestyle factors that drove them down that path, you'll never get them to actually change.
That's why the brainwashing is so terrifying. People can fall into it pretty quickly and then it can take years and years to deprogram them.
Fair enough, though I do think this can still help with any broader approach to changing their overall mentality.
A moment of consensus on its own might not be enough to sway someone, but if they hear someone try and contradict what they had recently agreed on, it can then make them feel more cognitive dissonance, and potentially make them at the bare minimum just stop and think for a second.
If someone else is later trying to sway them in some way, it's going to be easier when that person says something, and they can think "I remember saying something similar" rather than "this is the opposite of what I already believe."
Plus, there's also just the sort of "exposure therapy" factor to it, as well. A lot of people are radicalized to believe that the "opposing side" is pure, limitless evil, and that they hate you and want you dead, so just interacting with them can be enough to help slowly deradicalize them.
For example, this Pew Research article states, regarding the likelihood of people to support trans people's existence:
"Though Republicans who know a trans person are more likely than Republicans who don’t to say gender can be different from sex assigned at birth, more than eight-in-ten in both groups (83% and 88%, respectively) say gender is determined by sex at birth. Meanwhile, there are large differences between Democrats who do and do not know a transgender person. A majority of Democrats who do know a trans person (72%) say someone can be a man or a woman even if that differs from their sex assigned at birth, while those who don’t know anyone who is transgender are about evenly split (48% say gender is determined by sex assigned at birth while 51% say it can be different)."
But of course, that isn't just limited to acceptance of people by gender. It also applies to race, social and economic status, recipients and non-recipients of welfare programs, people working in different industries, etc.
Again, not saying it's at all some magic universal way to change someone's mind, or that on its own it's necessarily a factor that can override their overarching condition, (hell, that quote from before shows that it had a much smaller impact on republicans than democrats even given the same exposure) but the more and more this happens, the stronger and stronger an effect it has overall, and I'd say that alone makes it worth doing.
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We’ve also seen years of what Russia in its current state and Putin are capable of. None of it is good. Hell, when I was more active in activist circles I was in very close proximity to a Russian-driven disinformation campaign in 2016 that used and exploited leftist organizations for its own benefit. It wasn’t some “hey, we’re friends” situation; it was the Kremlin using and disposing of people to destabilize in the same way the US and western powers have for decades themselves. Hitching your wagon to other political powers is a shit idea. There is a reason I don’t trust any politician.
I was in very close proximity to a Russian-driven disinformation campaign in 2016 that used and exploited leftist organizations for its own benefit.
How did you uncover this information?
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Exactly, all authoritarians (far left/far right) can suck a big fat one. They are always the best boot lickers.
This person has previously advocated for hanging people for treason.
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I'm anti authoritarian and anti right. Tankies are leftists that I have no interest in getting along with. They are just as excited to be holding the gun in this comic
This "anti-authoritarian" recently called for mass execution of their enemies.
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Yes, leninists are nominally on the left. Nominally. However throughout history most similar ideologies have consistently exterminated executed and oppressed everyone that ever disagreed with them. Allies or not. Left or right. Which makes them authoritarian and untrustworthy first. Left at their convenience.
As an anarchist, I have no major beef with actual communist. While I will disagree a lot with demsoc or socdems. I have no issue allying with them where we agree. Because even though we disagree, on the things we agree on. I know they are just as committed, and won't turn on us the moment it's convenient.
But I'm all too familiar with the type that behave like the comic. I think we all are. Anyone using the term shitlib or blue maga for instance.
As an anarchist
You aren't an anarchist though, you've never actually expressed anarchists beliefs: you're a hard core DNC supporter and liberal. There's a reason your main complaint is people using terms like "shitlib" and "bluemaga", because those are what you are.
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This isn't infighting between liberals and leftists, this is infighting between different flavours of leftism, like anarchism and marxist-leninism.
You're reading a different set of comments to me then, the ones I'm seeing are full of bluemaga liberals like Optional or Eldritch insisting that "left unity" means getting behind the Democrats and left punching communists.
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You're from .ml, your opinion on tankies is coming from inside the house.
Frankly history has shown what happens to leftists who side with tankies. I for one will never be making that mistake again.
Lol, in a post condemning leftist infighting, people are up voting people attacking other leftists for being from the wrong instance
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This "anti-authoritarian" recently called for mass execution of their enemies.
Me? Is this because I said the SS should have been executed?
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No. I've seen marxist-leninists, maoists, and anyone in that area of thought arguing the following:
- LGBTQ+ identities are bourgeois degeneracy
- Trans people are a capitalist invention to divide workers
- Nazis have a point when it comes to nationalism
- Assad and Putin are leftists
- Anarchism has never been tried successfully (because every time someone tried they got betrayed by MLs and executed by them for wrongthink)
- Animal Farm is capitalist propaganda
- Killing millions of people is necessary for a better world
- States are 100% necessary for the development of socialism
- China is communist or will be communist by 2050
- Ukraine is a Nazi state who deserves to be invaded
- Russia taking children from Ukraine and relocating them is just them being nice and removing them out of the warzone
- Anarchists are all children who don't know better
- The socialist state must uphold "traditional values"
- Stalin exclusively killed Nazis
- The only valid leftist theory is the one that argues Marxism-Leninism is correct
- "Socialist" police are a good thing because they don't serve capital, they serve the people
- Leftists who don't agree with us are enemies of the revolution and should be enslaved because they will attempt to overthrow our successful socialist state
If you think ANY of those arguments are valid for leftism, then I'm sorry, but I don't want you around me.
Lol. Please present a single example of someone actually holding these views. This is the most obviously nonsense strawman in history, but everyone here will upvote it anyway because it lets them punch left.
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Are you saying nutomic is a troll?
Most communist don't identify as that because of the way leninist and Maoist have soiled it.
Nutomic has not said those things: now you're straight up lying to justify left punching.
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"I support genocide"
Anti-tankies
Nazis" The Holo-incident is not THAT bad"
Tankies Nazis -
I'm not so focused to keep lists Etc myself. However if you are interested in learning a bit more about it all. There are actually a few communities dedicated to it. Don't just take anything there as gospel though. Critical thinking is always good to employ. And even then it might just come down to who you decide you want to believe. However massive amounts of hypocritical behavior to me would indicate less trustworthiness.
Meanwhileongrad has a lot of it. Just bear in mind. Where people will stand is often more about what they do than even what they say.
So no, he didn't say that, you're just lying
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Those people were not being ironic, no. I think it's just a phenomenon that is excessively more common amongst internet MLs. Real life MLs are okay for the most part. Internet MLs are pretty much a cult that will try to take over ANY leftist community or be the dominant form of leftist discourse through any means necessary and will excessively push propaganda from literal fascists because they happen to be against liberals.
All I'm saying is that an embarrassing amount of leftists are terminally online and unable to do anything to try to push leftism other than argue with liberals online and spout hate towards those they see as "betraying" leftism. Those people don't actually do any organization IRL, which to me is a blessing... but sometimes that doesn't work. Brazil, and by extension all of South America, has a very bad problem with MLs dominating online AND IRL discourse, making it hard for other forms of leftism to be considered or even debated in good faith.
"those people" aren't real, you just made them up so you can punch left
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First I agree that marxists are generally chill it's the hyphenated ones that typically are not. And because we can agree on that. I think we should be able to agree that they aren't who is being pictured above in the comic.
Perhaps it was misunderstanding, perhaps it was talking past each other. Either way fair enough.
Others get the same treatment. I can count plenty of times where I've been told similar because I post from a .world domain. The difference being, of course correct me if I am wrong. That our administrators don't tend to be as problematic. It isn't 2019 anymore. ML isn't the only server. If you are focused on organization and outreach. Maybe it's worth considering finding a new instance that would would help in fostering that.
As I syndicist I absolutely gave some thought about joining an instance that better reflected my sensibilities. Though some recent events have definitely made me reconsider on that. I honestly think I'm happy an a much more diverse platform. Even if on the fediverse our diversity is pretty homogenic.
course correct me if I am wrong. That our administrators don’t tend to be as problematic
You are wrong, one hundred percent wrong. But you already know that the administrators of .world are Zionist liberals, but you don't care because you agree with them.
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Fair enough. I can do that as well. Just without all the domain baggage. And if it is something that bothers you. It's something to look at. Something I saw you actually cop to elsewhere on the topic.
Yeah, certainly no baggage on .world...
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Real life marxists tend to be okay, I don't mind them. But, online those people literally try to dominate ALL discourse in leftism to the point where every single contact people have with leftists is someone who believes those things unironically.
No, you're just strawmanning
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As an anarchist
You aren't an anarchist though, you've never actually expressed anarchists beliefs: you're a hard core DNC supporter and liberal. There's a reason your main complaint is people using terms like "shitlib" and "bluemaga", because those are what you are.
I do it all the time. Done it several places in this thread even. Though lying and dishonesty from a joke like you. Who's shitty hot takes are regularly posted on and laughed at in many communities. That's completely on brand.
For every weak and tepid bit of support I've ever given the DNC during the presidential election. I could give you 10 to 13 calling them out. Because I do it all the time. However terminally online little trolls like yourself aren't interested in facts or reality. And your disapproval is a badge of honor.
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No, but we don't have the popularity and support to elect good candidates yet, so right now it's a choice between bad and worse. We should be doing what we can to avoid worse.
Lol, "all examples of AES most be commended fully and without condition, otherwise you're an authoritarian red fash tankie.
You have to support the genocidal democrats though, because 'lesser evil'"
