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If You Needed to Pass an Exam to Vote

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  • scrubbles@poptalk.scrubbles.techS [email protected]

    I won't call out of or the drawer for bad idea. The idea is fine. There's just zero ways to ever implement it. It's nice to dream though

    savvywolf@pawb.socialS This user is from outside of this forum
    savvywolf@pawb.socialS This user is from outside of this forum
    [email protected]
    wrote last edited by
    #101

    Ehh... I think it's fundamentally problematic. Why should only a subset of the adult population be allowed to vote on laws that affect everyone?

    T R B 3 Replies Last reply
    1
    • fishos@lemmy.worldF [email protected]

      Um fuck you? Being autistic doesn't mean we can't circle a letter or understand a sentence. Hell, this shit is incredibly literal minded and is easy as hell for us. Maybe you're the one with trouble.....

      savvywolf@pawb.socialS This user is from outside of this forum
      savvywolf@pawb.socialS This user is from outside of this forum
      [email protected]
      wrote last edited by
      #102

      You're assuming that the grading system follows the "literal minded" definitions. On top of that, you better believe that they'll make you do the test in a loud and overstimulating environment.

      1 Reply Last reply
      2
      • fishos@lemmy.worldF [email protected]

        Um fuck you? Being autistic doesn't mean we can't circle a letter or understand a sentence. Hell, this shit is incredibly literal minded and is easy as hell for us. Maybe you're the one with trouble.....

        D This user is from outside of this forum
        D This user is from outside of this forum
        [email protected]
        wrote last edited by [email protected]
        #103

        You don't understand the test if you think it's all literal and "about circling the letter."

        You would, in fact, get failed by the white eugenicists giving it to you the moment they figured out you were autistic.

        One of the reasons they would know is that you think there are objectively correct answers to all of the questions and that most of them are not traps to allow a biased test giver to fail you and pass someone else that gave the same answer.

        1 Reply Last reply
        3
        • D [email protected]

          Heinlein gets shit on for this, but his "citizenship through service" idea always made sense to me. Yeah you have rights, can work a regular job, and have all the benefits we traditionally associate with "citizenship" by simply being a legal resident...but if you want to vote or hold office, you need to spend a few years contributing. Maybe that's military service, or maybe that's working as a teacher in a low-income area. Regardless, voting is a privilege that SHOULD be earned by contributing to the society you want to impact FIRST.

          savvywolf@pawb.socialS This user is from outside of this forum
          savvywolf@pawb.socialS This user is from outside of this forum
          [email protected]
          wrote last edited by
          #104

          So... What's stopping the government in power from implementing systems that stop their political opponents holding those service positions?

          D 1 Reply Last reply
          1
          • fishos@lemmy.worldF [email protected]

            Um fuck you? Being autistic doesn't mean we can't circle a letter or understand a sentence. Hell, this shit is incredibly literal minded and is easy as hell for us. Maybe you're the one with trouble.....

            T This user is from outside of this forum
            T This user is from outside of this forum
            [email protected]
            wrote last edited by
            #105

            Instructions unclear. Drew circle instead of line.

            1 Reply Last reply
            1
            • savvywolf@pawb.socialS [email protected]

              Ehh... I think it's fundamentally problematic. Why should only a subset of the adult population be allowed to vote on laws that affect everyone?

              T This user is from outside of this forum
              T This user is from outside of this forum
              [email protected]
              wrote last edited by
              #106

              In most places, citizens below a certain age can't vote, yet laws affect them as well. By extension, one could probably argue that some people "don't know what's best for them" and experts/educated people are better suited to make the laws.

              (However, creating such a test would obviously be impossible in practice, and would result in a conflict of interest, leading to discrimination, as muusemuuse points out.)

              1 Reply Last reply
              2
              • S [email protected]

                It's a beautiful thought but at this point in time it would be used as a tool to exclude more than anything. So long as it is a voluntary service there would be a system in place to suppress certain groups.

                D This user is from outside of this forum
                D This user is from outside of this forum
                [email protected]
                wrote last edited by
                #107

                No I agree it absolutely would NOT work any time near this generation. It's not happening in our lifetimes, and if it does...that's probably bad. But conceptually, it is feasible...assuming like 50 other variables we are currently missing.

                1 Reply Last reply
                0
                • savvywolf@pawb.socialS [email protected]

                  So... What's stopping the government in power from implementing systems that stop their political opponents holding those service positions?

                  D This user is from outside of this forum
                  D This user is from outside of this forum
                  [email protected]
                  wrote last edited by
                  #108

                  Yeah it's one of those ideas that work great if it's the way we had always done things for several generations...but it's not gonna work if we try to start it when anyone alive now is still...well...alive.

                  1 Reply Last reply
                  0
                  • B [email protected]

                    I also thought it a good idea at one point. I've since been convinced otherwise.

                    BUT, I do think we need some way for intolerant people to be stripped of the political power of the vote. I just can't figure out a way it could possibly be implemented without being weaponized against the marginalized. It may be better to implement it and attempt "constant vigilance" -- it seems like there are already necessary system that can be so weaponized that still do more good than harm.

                    D This user is from outside of this forum
                    D This user is from outside of this forum
                    [email protected]
                    wrote last edited by
                    #109

                    Humans in 2025 are...well, mostly horrible. So if we're working with this stock, it's never going to work. It's more of an idea that works really well AFTER the morons die from COVID/etc. because they refused to wear a mask unless that mask let them brutalize brown folks. Long-term, I think it's in idea we shouldn't bin (as a species). But it absolutely won't work TODAY.

                    R 1 Reply Last reply
                    0
                    • M [email protected]

                      What that actually looked like:

                      G This user is from outside of this forum
                      G This user is from outside of this forum
                      [email protected]
                      wrote last edited by
                      #110

                      I did my best. Do I get to vote?

                      R H objection@lemmy.mlO tag@lemmy.worldT 4 Replies Last reply
                      0
                      • F [email protected]

                        Maybe the author was aware of it being a bad idea but didn't really emphasize that only an exclusive group would pick our leaders.

                        D This user is from outside of this forum
                        D This user is from outside of this forum
                        [email protected]
                        wrote last edited by
                        #111

                        Judging from the rest of this author's work, I highly doubt they thought about this any deeper than a puddle.

                        1 Reply Last reply
                        7
                        • T [email protected]

                          A

                          I think.

                          5 This user is from outside of this forum
                          5 This user is from outside of this forum
                          [email protected]
                          wrote last edited by
                          #112

                          I read it as "1." Which underlines the point, I think

                          T 1 Reply Last reply
                          2
                          • scrubbles@poptalk.scrubbles.techS [email protected]

                            I won't call out of or the drawer for bad idea. The idea is fine. There's just zero ways to ever implement it. It's nice to dream though

                            D This user is from outside of this forum
                            D This user is from outside of this forum
                            [email protected]
                            wrote last edited by
                            #113

                            Uhh, no the idea is most certainly not "fine"

                            It's only fine if you don't think about it at all beyond the surface level presentation.

                            B 1 Reply Last reply
                            2
                            • M [email protected]

                              What that actually looked like:

                              dsilverz@calckey.worldD This user is from outside of this forum
                              dsilverz@calckey.worldD This user is from outside of this forum
                              [email protected]
                              wrote last edited by
                              #114

                              @[email protected] @[email protected]

                              TIL I'm possibly partially (if not entirely) illiterate.

                              Starting with the first question, "Draw a
                              line a_round_ the number or letter of this sentence.", which can be ELI5'd as follows:

                              The main object is
                              the number or letter of this sentence, which is the number or letter signaling the sentence, which is "1", which is a number, so it's the number of this sentence, "1". This is fine.

                              The action being required is to "
                              Draw a line around" the object, so, I must draw a line.

                              However, a
                              line implies a straight line, while around implies a circle (which is round), so it must be a circle.

                              However, what's
                              around a circle isn't called a line, it's a circumference. And a circumference is made of infinitesimally small segments so small that they're essentially an arc. And an arc is a segment insofar it effectively connects two points in a cartesian space with two dimensions or more... And a segment is essentially a finite range of a line, which is infinite...

                              The original question asks for a line, which is infinite. However, any physical object is finite insofar it has a limited, finite area, so a
                              line couldn't be drawn: what can be drawn is a segment whose length is less or equal to the largest diagonal of the said physical object, which is a rectangular paper, so drawing a line would be impossible, only segments comprising a circumference.

                              However, a physically-drawn
                              segment can't be infinitesimal insofar the thickness of the drawing tool would exceed the infinitesimality from an infinitesimal segment. It wouldn't be a circumference, but a polygon with many sides.

                              So I must draw a
                              polygon with enough sides to closely represent a circumference, composed by the smallest possible segments, which are finite lines.

                              However, the question asks for
                              a line, and the English preposition a implies a single unit of something... but the said something can be a set (e.g. a flock, which implies many birds)... but line isn't a set...

                              However,
                              too many howevers.

                              So, if I decide to draw a circumference centered at the object (the number 1), as in
                              circle the number, maybe it won't be the line originally expected.

                              I could draw a box instead, which would technically be
                              around it, and would be made of lines (four lines, to be exact). But, again, a line isn't the same as lines, let alone four lines.

                              I could draw a single line, but it wouldn't be
                              around.

                              Maybe I could reinterpret the space. I could bend the paper and glue two opposing edges of it, so any segment would behave as a line, because the drawable space is now bent and both tips of the segment would meet seamlessly.

                              But the line wouldn't be
                              around the object, so the paper must be bent in a way that turns it into a cone whose tip is centered on the object, so a segment would become a line effectively around the object...

                              However, I got
                              no glue.

                              /jk

                              P 1 Reply Last reply
                              0
                              • D [email protected]

                                The way I imagined it, you would get a wage for your service and service would be customizable to account for any disability, including severe intellectual-disability.

                                5 This user is from outside of this forum
                                5 This user is from outside of this forum
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                                wrote last edited by [email protected]
                                #115

                                Iirc, in the book, the point was that it was hazardous service - there was a real risk of loss of life or limb, which they underlined at every opportunity (remember the recruiter's obviously prosthetic hand? He had one that blended in much better!) Otherwise, like dick_fineman said, customized to your abilities and you're provided for. The idea was to filter out the self-serving sort.

                                But yeah, the problem becomes who gets to assign which duty - it becomes very easy to assign some people more hazardous positions depending on how "correct" their thinking is. Or more subtle things, like cultural fit, or education level.

                                1 Reply Last reply
                                0
                                • savvywolf@pawb.socialS [email protected]

                                  Ehh... I think it's fundamentally problematic. Why should only a subset of the adult population be allowed to vote on laws that affect everyone?

                                  R This user is from outside of this forum
                                  R This user is from outside of this forum
                                  [email protected]
                                  wrote last edited by
                                  #116

                                  If there were a practical way to do it, a way to ensure that only those who were well informed on a topic could have a say in it wouldn't be an issue. The only barrier to voting would be your desire to inform yourself.

                                  Unfortunately there isn't, because just about every word in the above sentences can be twisted by someone with illintent.
                                  The concept isn't fundamentally flawed, it's just blocked by insurmountable obstacles.

                                  scrubbles@poptalk.scrubbles.techS 1 Reply Last reply
                                  4
                                  • B [email protected]
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                                    wrote last edited by [email protected]
                                    #117

                                    If I recall correctly, Aristotle proposed something like only the educated being able to vote. I think if everyone was guaranteed free access to both a high school and college education, along with all food and living costs covered for anyone studying, then I could see having at least any associates level degree being an okay barrier of entry to voting.

                                    However, such a thing would need to be protected by some unremovable barriers. For instance, education would need to continue receiving appropriate funding, food and other living costs such as renting a room would need to be covered even as the cost for these things change. People with disabilities would need to receive proper accommodations.

                                    A caveat I’ll add is that there would need to be more community colleges built and much more funding for pre-K thru 12th grade as well.

                                    E 1 Reply Last reply
                                    11
                                    • savvywolf@pawb.socialS [email protected]

                                      First question on the test:
                                      "What is the most important American value?"

                                      A This user is from outside of this forum
                                      A This user is from outside of this forum
                                      [email protected]
                                      wrote last edited by
                                      #118

                                      Oh! Oh! I know this one!

                                      Telling someone else they're doing freedom wrong!

                                      1 Reply Last reply
                                      0
                                      • chicken@lemmy.dbzer0.comC [email protected]

                                        the main function of the contemporary media: to convey the message that even if you’re clever enough to have figured out that it’s all a cynical power game, the rest of America is a ridiculous pack of sheep.

                                        This is the trap.

                                        -David Graeber, The Democracy Project

                                        P This user is from outside of this forum
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                                        wrote last edited by
                                        #119

                                        You mean most people know better?

                                        How could society signal to themselves that they know?

                                        J 1 Reply Last reply
                                        0
                                        • dsilverz@calckey.worldD [email protected]

                                          @[email protected] @[email protected]

                                          TIL I'm possibly partially (if not entirely) illiterate.

                                          Starting with the first question, "Draw a
                                          line a_round_ the number or letter of this sentence.", which can be ELI5'd as follows:

                                          The main object is
                                          the number or letter of this sentence, which is the number or letter signaling the sentence, which is "1", which is a number, so it's the number of this sentence, "1". This is fine.

                                          The action being required is to "
                                          Draw a line around" the object, so, I must draw a line.

                                          However, a
                                          line implies a straight line, while around implies a circle (which is round), so it must be a circle.

                                          However, what's
                                          around a circle isn't called a line, it's a circumference. And a circumference is made of infinitesimally small segments so small that they're essentially an arc. And an arc is a segment insofar it effectively connects two points in a cartesian space with two dimensions or more... And a segment is essentially a finite range of a line, which is infinite...

                                          The original question asks for a line, which is infinite. However, any physical object is finite insofar it has a limited, finite area, so a
                                          line couldn't be drawn: what can be drawn is a segment whose length is less or equal to the largest diagonal of the said physical object, which is a rectangular paper, so drawing a line would be impossible, only segments comprising a circumference.

                                          However, a physically-drawn
                                          segment can't be infinitesimal insofar the thickness of the drawing tool would exceed the infinitesimality from an infinitesimal segment. It wouldn't be a circumference, but a polygon with many sides.

                                          So I must draw a
                                          polygon with enough sides to closely represent a circumference, composed by the smallest possible segments, which are finite lines.

                                          However, the question asks for
                                          a line, and the English preposition a implies a single unit of something... but the said something can be a set (e.g. a flock, which implies many birds)... but line isn't a set...

                                          However,
                                          too many howevers.

                                          So, if I decide to draw a circumference centered at the object (the number 1), as in
                                          circle the number, maybe it won't be the line originally expected.

                                          I could draw a box instead, which would technically be
                                          around it, and would be made of lines (four lines, to be exact). But, again, a line isn't the same as lines, let alone four lines.

                                          I could draw a single line, but it wouldn't be
                                          around.

                                          Maybe I could reinterpret the space. I could bend the paper and glue two opposing edges of it, so any segment would behave as a line, because the drawable space is now bent and both tips of the segment would meet seamlessly.

                                          But the line wouldn't be
                                          around the object, so the paper must be bent in a way that turns it into a cone whose tip is centered on the object, so a segment would become a line effectively around the object...

                                          However, I got
                                          no glue.

                                          /jk

                                          P This user is from outside of this forum
                                          P This user is from outside of this forum
                                          [email protected]
                                          wrote last edited by
                                          #120

                                          The ambiguity was by design. It let the test proctor decide who did or did not pass with near impunity. This was used to legally deny voting rights to minorities.

                                          dsilverz@calckey.worldD 1 Reply Last reply
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